Bricks And Bytes Podcast

#013 – Ram Ramisetti- Transcript

Ram Ramisetti


Well, for entrepreneurs, I would say like if you are not talking with 2-3 customers a day or if you are not visiting at least 1-2 construction sites in a week, I think something is wrong. You need to have a very grounded approach in understanding the pain point, but also it really helps in developing your business model, developing your core to market strategy. Be more open going, connecting with the clients, visiting the construction sites. Don’t forget to take doughnuts with you. 

What’s up everyone? Welcome to another episode of the Bricks and Bytes podcast, your go-to for all things construction tech. Today, we are delighted to welcome someone who lives and breathes construction technology, Ram Ramisetti. From India to Europe, the Middle East and now the USA, Ram has worked his way from architecture to sustainability and now acts as both an investor and advisor to construction technology companies. Stay tuned to hear more about the global construction scene, pain points and opportunities, strategies for success and scaling. 

So Ram, your background. So you obviously do a lot of things, checking you out on LinkedIn and your personal website and whatnot. You do a number of things. So tell us a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are now. 

Sure. My background is in architecture. I was always passionate about designing beautiful buildings, coming from a land of the Taj Mahal. It’s always been, since childhood, that I was interested in designing and constructing spaces that are very beautiful and very functional, of course. I graduated with an undergraduate architecture degree in 2013. Then, at that time, I was super passionate about green buildings. So straight out of college, I went to Europe to do research in green buildings. I was in Germany for a while and in Portugal for a while. My specialisation at that time was designing natural buildings, you know, the buildings which consume, on average, the same amount of energy that they produce, kind of concept or other resources. I spent years in research for a year, then I felt like, okay, the whole industry and the academy are going in different directions. I wanted to be more boots-on-the-ground than researching in a lab. So, I moved away from the academia side and moved to the industry, came back to my country, India, started as an energy analyst, trying to understand how I can make designs more efficient, you know, energy-efficient or eco-friendly, with less carbon footprint. I think all the guys at that age are more idealistic. They don’t want to chase money. They want to chase making this world a better place. Yeah, I did that for three years, working in India, Southeast Asia, Singapore, Thailand, the Philippines, the Middle East, Dubai, Qatar, and Oman, on many projects. Holiday Inn, for instance. Yeah, a lot of them got LEED Gold rating, a few got LEED Platinum rating, and there were a bunch of signature projects. 

I enjoyed so much, you know, but wanted to change the world, like with one building at a time. I wanted to change the whole construction sector at the same time. I wanted to make more impact, so at that point, after four years, you know, being on the field and working on so many nice, challenging, and beautiful projects, I decided, okay, I’ll go to grad school. Then I applied to a bunch of schools in the US. Fortunately, I got a full scholarship to one of the top engineering schools in the US. I arrived in the US in 2017 and did my Masters in Construction Management and Technology. That’s where I got attached to the new thing called the technology aspect. I was fortunate to work with a lot of professors who were very business-minded and thought that construction is not only about having a design concept, but it’s more about changing how we can do things, how we can execute operations, how we can manage buildings, and how we can infuse tech into the whole life cycle, making things more productive, more sustainable, and with higher profit margins. Then I graduated in 2019 from the engineering school. I joined McCarthy. I was lucky to be at McCarthy. It’s one of the, not only one of the largest general contractors in the US, but it’s also one of the big innovators in the field. 

They are very innovative, pro-tech, and open to all new ideas. In any company, it’s the culture, right? Often, you see in construction, it’s very rigid, you know, top-down where the guy at the top makes a decision on something, and then everyone follows like it’s just a general and soldier. But McCarthy is something different, you know. It’s a place where everyone has a voice, everyone can express their opinion without any fear. And they are very open to new ideas. So I always had a chance to work with great project managers and project directors, you know, in the field, who are open to trying new things and are never afraid of failing. I think failure is a part of the whole innovation, right? 

I started as a project engineer in the field in Dallas itself, working for one of the biggest clients for McCarthy, Southwest Airlines, on a $50 million project. We were constructing a Flight Simulator training centre where pilots could try the simulators. Everything went well. Then, you know, the whole status quo changed in 2020 when COVID hit. You couldn’t do things in the same old fashion anymore. You had to be open to new things, finding new solutions for the challenges. I wouldn’t even call it a crisis, but a moment of crisis. Then I think whenever there’s chaos, there’s also an opportunity to grow. 

Absolutely. So McCarthy and other innovative general contractors came together and started something called an open challenge for any guys or start-ups who could come and pitch ideas to, I think at that point, there were eight general contractors in that coalition. So you pitch the idea, it’s like a Shark Tank. You pitch the idea, they like it, they work with you. I pitched an idea by myself. It got recognition, and what was the idea? So the idea is like in the construction field, it’s a more contact-based job, right? You’re physically in touch with other guys. COVID changed that. So how can you make our field guys safer when they are using the hand tools, which there is a chance that COVID can pass from one hand, one person to another hand through these tools? So, the idea was a sanitisation gang box, like a microwave. 

Instead of microwaves, we are using UV rays; you just put any hand tool in that box. It’s like a micro and push the button; it has a timer of 60 seconds, which sanitises the tool. Nice. Still pursuing it? No, not really. I mean, I think COVID is not a big concern right now. But the beauty of the idea is not the product. The thing is that even if you have a dollar per product, how are you going to scale it? I cannot set up a manufacturing plant, right? So it should be very, very open-source and an asset-light kind of thing. We created 3D files. Anyone can download and print those boxes. And it’s like IKEA. Our vision is that all construction fields should have this can box with a budget of $200. So, yeah, that’s a beautiful idea. We did our job. Unfortunately, it never went beyond the beta stage because, theoretically, we say that the virus can be killed, but labs should verify that. Labs were overwhelmed with a lot of other things at that time. So by the time I thought about getting lab certification, it wasn’t a big challenge anymore. 

But the beautiful thing about that whole experience is that I had a chance to connect with a lot of entrepreneurs, innovators within the industry, and VC funds. I got exposed to VC funds and everything. Yeah, on that. So you now actually do a little bit of angel and even venture capital start-up advising. Is that right? Yep. So I’m an advisor to a bunch of start-ups. I mean, a few are in construction tech for sure. I’m passionate about the social impact. So I work with the United Nations Sustainability and Solutions accelerator. I also advise those start-ups. So basically, I advise in three things, which I’m good at: product, go-to-market, and fundraising. 

So it typically depends on the start-up to start-up. If it is a construction tech start-up, how can you go and what is a go-to-market strategy? Often start-ups at a very early stage are overwhelmed with a lot of requests from different users, like how the product should be developed and what features to add. So I try to come up with different ways to understand your customer, how to optimise the better features, and how to have a better roadmap, among other things. Often, I think the biggest challenge in the construction tech system is not the product; it’s the go-to-market strategy, how you want to scale it, and change the fragmentation and address other challenges. So mostly, I work with those. 

So, for your go-to-market strategy, what’s your top advice? Well, boots on the ground. You cannot sell construction tech without understanding your customer. Your customer is the first thing you need to understand, as they are not pro-tech and may be hesitant to try new things, given the risk-averse nature of the industry. So you cannot sell by just sitting online and having a bunch of Zoom calls. You know, this is something that requires a boots-on-the-ground approach. Go and don’t be a seller; be a partner. For example, with most deep tech, like AI and robotics, you cannot just go and say, “This is my product; I just want to sell it.” You need to partner with them, understand if they even have enough data and whether they are at a stage where they can effectively use AI tools. So there are a lot of granular details that go into each type of solution, which depends upon each type of product. 

I just try to sit with the founders and advise them on how to effectively have that kind of scaling strategy, go-to-market strategy, and how to have a better product roadmap. Is there any particular thing when you meet with start-up owners, founders that you are looking at in them or in their ideas or businesses? I guess I mostly focus on early-stage, when I say pre-seed or seed stage start-ups. At that point, it’s more about the founder. What is the founder’s capability, capacity, credibility, and their communication and vision to execute the idea? For sure, more than anything, I’m betting on the founder, then comes the problem and pain point. What is the problem and pain point they’re trying to solve? What is the solution they’re proposing? I mean, is it the right solution for the right pain point? Just like, for example, productivity issue, labour productivity, are you selling something like an energy drink, which gives more energy to the labour so they can be productive? That’s a wrong root cause for low productivity. So I love that example; I’m going to use that. I like that. Market size, definitely market size and competitors. I think any VC would want to have a decent market size, and you know, what are the existing competitors working on? The last thing, sometimes mostly for deep tech, it’s also about the timing. Is it the right time for that kind of idea? 

About ideas, this is a question that was going to be asked slightly later. Is there any particular direction that you meet, you find businesses or start-ups are going towards, or any particular problems that they are solving currently, as a majority of the start-ups? Is there any particular focus anywhere? Yeah, I mean, if I look into product trends across the globe, where I see a lot of start-ups are focusing, it’s definitely on the point of progress tracking. One system of record in the construction site. That’s a basic thrust. Having one system also means shortening the payment cycle, having fewer RFIs, fewer schedule delays, and fewer cost issues. 

I see a lot of start-ups across the globe focusing on progress tracking and deviation analysis. There are also a bunch of start-ups that are focusing mostly on subcontractors and payment processing. If you look into it right now, the subcontractors actually have a huge payment cycle that takes around 45 to 90 days. There are a lot of FinTech start-ups which focus on subcontractors. That’s another trend I’m looking at. Mostly in Asia-specific, I’m also seeing a lot of supply chain start-ups, as well as in Latin countries. It’s also interesting that in the US, you don’t see much success in supply chain. But in Asia-specific, you see there are unicorns that are very successful in having it. It’s another trend. It’s amazing that I see. Yes, it depends on where you are globally. 

That’s a question I wanted to come on to later on. But as we’re on the point, we may as well stick with it. How does the construction tech world differ on a global level? If I can add to this question also, are the problems that people in Asia are tackling the same as the problem in the US, for example, in construction? It is completely different. I think if you look into the US markets or European markets, it already has a couple of digitalisation advancements, right? There’s almost everything you can see in product management done by some kind of a tool like Procore or Autodesk. There’s another way where the whole BIM concept came into place. There’s at least a foundation that has happened. So this foundation helps to have that kind of data which they can use it for further developments like AI, IoT, smart construction sites, and the whole new concept that comes into the picture. 

But if you look into Asia-specific, they are right now witnessing what we call as a first or second wave to a certain extent. It depends upon if you’re looking into tier one cities or tier two cities. If you look into tier one cities in China or India, they are in that phenomenon where they’re trying to adopt something like Procore or Autodesk. If you look into tier two, they are in a phenomenon where fundamentals such as AutoCAD or PIM models are being adopted. The whole process we assume is called a trickle-down effect. Everything that happened in Europe or Asia or the developed economies is going to trickle down those trends or technology, maybe potentially in 8 to 10 years into those markets. 

But there’s a thing, the globalisation of these start-ups also needs to have an element of localisation. You cannot sell a product without adapting to local conditions, which are totally different. So, it should have a local flavour for sure. The other thing is that challenges are different. Labour shortage is a big thing in Europe or the US, but you cannot say the same thing in Europe, India, or China, right? They have a big population. It’s more of a productivity issue than a shortage issue. So, the challenges are different. The tech adoption levels are different. The start-ups focusing on different aspects and their product trends are very different. That’s interesting. 

I know a lot of construction tech investors, and one of the things they look at is how can this scale and can it scale globally? But in fact, what you’re saying is that the problems are slightly different depending on where you’re at. Do you think it’s actually even, dare I say it, possible for these companies to scale globally, or do they need to adapt their projects so much, maybe even pivot if they want to go global? Scaling an average construction tech start-up takes more years compared to traditional SaaS start-ups or any other. 

You know, you need to, it’s a long game if you want to be in the construction tech space, be it for entrepreneurs or VCs. Why didn’t companies like Procore or Autodesk become more adopted in India or China if they have a bunch of money to scale it globally? The thing is that challenges are very different. You need to understand that it’s not like, it’s just what we call market timing. It’s a great product, but you need to understand whether the customer is ready to have that kind of capability to adopt that kind of tech. So yes, global scaling is possible, but it’s not like WhatsApp or Instagram, where it happens overnight across the globe, no, it cannot happen that kind of, you cannot assume that kind of hockey stick kind of rapid, globalisation scaling. It takes time. It’s always a long game. Yeah, sure. Yeah. It’s interesting. All the activity both in Asia or in the West, whatever you want to call it, is the same, which is the building or construction project. So the tangible product, but the kind of ways of doing, of getting to it is different, which creates issues with having the same product spread all over the world. Standardisation, yeah. The other thing is it’s a price-sensitive market. You need to understand prices, like Asia, China, or the Middle East working at a totally different level. If you try to sell the same product, which is highly priced, you need to have a kind of localisation of any global product to scale it efficiently in those markets. What about materials? Because this sounds like something that can be done in the same way, anywhere in the world. If there are some technologies that can produce some type of innovative materials which are less carbon-efficient and also durable. 

Do you see, do you hear any innovation in terms of material technology? Yeah, the beautiful thing about materials is that there’s a certain segment of construction tech which is driven by regulation. If I want to have some kind of different concrete usage in Texas, I need to get 17 approvals. Regulations across 50 different states for effective scaling of any new material, then think about the global level or different countries how it works. So, I think there are three things that are driving the material change, obviously climate change, it’s a big problem, but there are three things like one is the regulation, the other is the clients. No, as more and more clients want to reduce their carbon footprint or they acknowledge that by 2040 or 2050, those kinds of transitions need to happen. So, it’s client-driven, then it’s GC-driven. The third thing is the financial institutions. I am seeing a new trend where banks are only, like not in the construction, but in infrastructure, they are supporting those projects which are more eco-friendly or sustainable, right? So, yes, material startups will definitely gain traction, mostly in the next few years, where the regulation would be more or less QSM and more access to rights to boost rapid adoption of those new eco-friendly or sustainable materials, be it in concrete, steel or glass across the board. And yes, I think one advantage is that it’s easy to scale them, right? Compared to tech, you can sell the same material across the world. I don’t think you wouldn’t find many hurdles. Move on to when we had a chat before around, we spoke about something that excites you, which is artificial intelligence. So where do we want to start? What excites you about it? So I would use to see the things from tech. I would see the things from the pain points. So what are the pain points that excite me as a general contractor? I would say then, yeah, AI, one thing is that AI has the potential to unlock so many things that we are not doing without data. 

It can give us insights on how more efficiently we can build projects, how efficiently we get more profit margins, how can we be more productive, how we can reduce the safety incidents and that also attracts more workforce to our company at the end. Also, how can we reduce our quality issues and beyond schedule and cost, right? So there’s a lot of data that can answer if you ask the right questions, if you try and model it in the right way. So I think AI is a game changer for any general contractor and it also acts as a kind of a biggest competitive advantage over other GCs if you are in a kind of a race to win certain market share or expand your market share. So AI is something that excites a lot because it is tied into so many pain points across the spectrum. I think it’s sustainable. I’m always personally, me or my company, we always want to be more eco-friendly or sustainable in our business project practices. So sustainability is something not only during the construction phase, but also how we can design a building such that even at the demolition stage, they are very eco-friendly. How we can make sure that our buildings are having that circular kind of supply chain concept rather than a linear one. The other thing is that that excites is the labour, right? Labour shortage is a big thing. Every day, everyone is fighting for the very labour where demand is more than supply. So it’s two phases like how we can get more labour on board. Also how we can attract generation trade or millennials to a certain extent to this industry, which this is like a very old, ancient, unattractive kind of thing. Do you have any thoughts on that? Like how we attract generations? Just because I was having a conversation with someone just yesterday about this. 

So, interested to hear your thoughts. I think you need to acknowledge that there should be a kind of a change in the culture in the field. I mean, at the office level, I think every GC has right now adopted tech to a certain extent, but at the field, usually tech doesn’t trickle down. You can see laptops, iPads or mobile phones in project engineers, maybe project managers, but it never trickled down to foreman or labour in a way that needs to happen. So, if you want to attract Generation Z which was born and brought up with mobile phones to a certain extent, you need to understand that tech is a good thing if used efficiently. You need to be open to giving access to tech to those new workers. You also need to upskill them. There’s a lot of things happening with tech, but you need to understand how can we upskill. I imagine the future of construction field is totally different from what we do right now. In 2030 or 2040, you’ll see robots and humans working side by side. There’s 5G or maybe 6G, IoT, a lot of data collection, a lot of things happening, drones flying continuously. So, in those kinds of work environments, it’s very, very critical that you upskill the current workforce that is capable enough to work in those kinds of environments. Those upskilling also need to be another factor. But obviously, the other things, how you reduce, as an industry, we are still very unsafe compared to manufacturing or agriculture. That’s definitely a big challenge for us, not only to attract but also to protect our workforce who work very hard every day. I think these are a bunch of things I feel like we need to prioritise. And don’t forget, you need to get some form of TikTok trends going to attract these people. Yeah. Yeah. So obviously, as millennials get into more executive positions by the end of the year, point to that. I think you can see a nice phenomenon of changing whole different companies in adopting that. Ram, so investing in technology is considered one of the riskiest investing activities. In the last few months, we’ve seen the markets going down everywhere, especially technology. 

So basically the question is, are investors willing to invest in startup companies in construction and is there any money there? Irrespective of the market, the whole VC startup is always a risky business, right? 80% of startups never even go to Series A, to be frank. But unlike things, you know, selling real estate in the Metaverse or having a 10-minute grocery shopping, most of the problems we deal with in construction are very foundational, very fundamental, and very critical, right? So as the problems are critical, the investing is critical as well. As long as I feel like the good thing about the whole construction tech is that most of the problems we are dealing with here are very foundational, fundamental and they definitely need investing and they definitely have returns. So I think I never heard from any VC across my talks or any entrepreneur that they have funding issues. I mean there are certain valuation issues for sure. I acknowledge that valuations are down very much. There are a lot of VC funds that actually fundraised in the last two years, like 100 million dollars a lot from LPs. So they need to invest that money in the next two to five years. So, I don’t think there are any hurdles in access to capital. And as long as I say, entrepreneurs have a vision of building something rather than betting on tech. The problem is that sometimes you see entrepreneurs focusing on tech or product. No, you need to have the mindset that you’re building a business; you cannot say, okay, this is tech I believe can be game-changing, but you need to start with a pain point, then tech. Okay, I have blockchain, so I think I want to work on something. It doesn’t work like that. This is a pain point and I want to solve this pain point using any tech that’s accessible. So yes, I completely believe there are no issues in terms of investing, funding, or capital access. Okay, interesting. You mentioned blockchain. Is there any particular aspect that interests you in blockchain in construction? Two things, financial transactions, whole loans, credit for the subcontractors. One thing is that the second is the supply chain. 

The whole ESG has more and more companies become more in need to adopt these climate regulations and need to reduce the carbon footprint. I think there needs to be transparency and trust in the supply chain. Is the material really eco-friendly? Are carbon emissions during transportation happening? So the blockchain acts as that kind of backbone for the whole supply chain and ESG tracking within the industry, that’s where I see a promising application. Then the smart contracts. I mean, not today maybe. We are not at that stage, but in the pretty much near future, smart contracts are something. I think that’s phenomenal to start an outside industry and it will be adopted in the industry. I often wonder about this technology because it seems like in the construction industry we struggle with even the most basic technology still, like some site teams are still using pen and paper as an example. So how can we jump from pen and paper straight into some cutting-edge blockchain? Personally, I don’t see it. Yes, yes, that’s where most entrepreneurs also fail to understand the time or total addressable market. The time doesn’t change from tech to tech. As the fragment of not every development for mid-size GCs or small and mid subcontractors. 

Yeah, but there’s a huge market there as well. Even my experience working with some subcontractors and people that I know who are only subcontractors, they are the perfect definition of traditional business which would benefit from even some basic, basic automation. But people see it, the market seems to target the cutting edge, as I said earlier. Can you tell us any thoughts on ESG investing and how does it relate to startups and construction or what are your thoughts on ESG? The whole sustainability is something like a fashion industry where Europe first comes then it is adopted by the US, right? Whatever fashion you see in Europe right now, it will be copied by US markets maybe in two or three years. The same thing with ESG, and it’s a head company in the whole ESG tracking within the construction industry or across the economy compared to the US right now. We are seeing a bunch of proposals from the Securities and Exchange Commission on adopting certain kinds of ESG reports for every public listed company. Yes, when I say public listed companies that also include like REITs, Real Estate Investment Trusts. So that can be a big game-changer and how you can. So there’s upstream downstream. Upstream is something like material companies and downstream is where general contractors are listed. As more companies, as the government regulates more, that okay, we want carbon emissions or environmental emissions, the whole thing needs to be reduced over time. It needs to be, there should be a certain kind of tracking and reporting phenomenon that happens. It needs to happen. Right now, we don’t have any platform that can support ESG tracking and reporting across the supply chain or across the upstream and downstream, right? That’s the way we are looking. I mean, at least the industry is looking for certain solutions that help to have that tracking and reporting that includes the data collection, analytics and also reporting to different authorities over a time period. So we want, I mean, holistically, there need to be certain solutions working on those kinds of problems. 

Yeah, nice. And like, I like some stuff that you mentioned on your website about construction 4.0. So how does that look? And yeah, how would you define the previous one, two, three? One, two, three is more foundational, right? Collect, digitalising the things, something which is paper-based, adopting more BIM, collecting data, like photographs or drone captures, you know, foundational as required. Construction 4.0 is a broad term, I guess I use personally for various technologies that combine together to have an effective value, efficient value that, you know, can make our workers more safer, can make our field more productive, and can provide transactional value to the clients post-handover. It’s a broad category like that has hardware tech like sensors, robotics, autonomous vehicles, then there’s materials, then there’s SaaS platforms, then there’s FinTech, InsurTech, then typical project management tools, AI, everything. So construction 4.0 doesn’t define itself just because of some kind of software. It’s a broad definition that includes every kind of tech, hardware, materials, everything like a complete transformation, right? Complete transformation. And how does construction 5.0 look? Have to ask. I’m really curious how construction 5.0 looks like. It’s not possible. I think I would see more smart like humanoids or kind of rewards like doing tasks which are right now. It’s like predicting the future. You cannot predict the future, right? We don’t even know how 4.0 will crystallise really in the next few years. So how can you, it’s not possible to kind of know what obviously, of course, yes. And humanoid plugged into some form of blockchain payment mechanism sounds quite exciting. Come on. We might never see it, but. Recently, I read a research paper on an experiment they did in Switzerland where they created a kind of meditation pod that is supported by blockchain, kind of thing that operates by itself, that gets paid by itself. You know, there’s no human interaction, intervention, everything is done by itself. 

It’s quite a, I think maybe in future, in the future, no one owns the buildings, buildings get owned by themselves through some kind of DAO concepts. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, should we go to off-topic questions? Yeah, I was going to actually keep the off-topic kind of on topic because, Ram, you have so much expertise and it’s very clear that you understand construction tech so well. So my question would be, if you had one key golden nugget of advice or information or something you want to share, what would that be? Well, for entrepreneurs, I would say like, if you’re not talking with two, three customers a day, or if you’re not visiting at least one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, construction sites in a week, I think something is wrong. You need to have a very, very grounded approach in understanding the pain point, but also it really helps in developing your business model, developing your go-to-market strategy. Be more open, going, connecting with the clients, visiting the construction sites. Of course, don’t forget to take donuts with you while visiting the construction sites. So yeah, that’s my, I think, biggest advice for those who want to win the field. And one big no, I would say, don’t get obsessed with the product, you know, you’re building a business, not the product. Often, even mediocre products with the right partnership and great communication can win the market, rather than developing some kind of super product, over-engineered product, don’t keep the product in the driving seat. It’s key, it’s definitely the core, but sometimes I see people get so much obsessed with the product. Nice, yeah. Very good. Okay, so since we have advice for entrepreneurs, what about advice for investors if they would like to invest in technology, construction technology businesses? Obviously, it’s not financial advice. I believe just like entrepreneurs, investors should come into this industry with a vision, like to change this industry, to solve the pain points, you know. Focus on solving the pain points and problems. Let the industry reward you later when you solve the problem. 

Come with a mindset of building, not betting on the tech-enabled businesses. And the second thing is that this is always going to be a long game, especially considering the fragmentation. Maybe in the future, you will see more M&A activity happening at the GC level or subcontractors level where you end up with a bunch of big general contractors or subcontractors that have a huge market share. So it’s easy to adopt the tech, but considering the very nature of the market, it’s going to be a long game. We cannot expect overnight like a kind of unicorns in this industry. You have Procore, which took a long time to get into IPO state. And what are you, apart from work and the construction tech world? What’s your favourite? Do you have any other hobbies? What’s your favourite thing to do in your downtime? I’m more of an outdoor person than an indoor person. I’m more of a nature lover. So hiking is one thing I do a lot. I also recently, like last year, learned sailing. Oh, nice. I always want to sail across the Atlantic Ocean one day. Nice. So, right now, whenever there’s a chance, when there’s a good wind, a decent wind, I try to sail with a bunch of my friends. Whereabouts do you go? On lakes or somewhere? Yeah, right now, I mean, lakes. I never ventured into the oceans. So hopefully, I want to do that one day on the Gulf of Mexico. So we are at a very early stage. But yeah, that’s one thing I love to do. I thought Texas was just like plain soil. There’s nothing there. But apparently, there are lakes you say? There are a bunch of lakes here. At least in Dallas, there are big lakes. Yeah, there are a bunch of big lakes where a lot of sailing people do. Yeah, but Texas is not as beautiful as California or Illinois, I agree. So it’s a bunch of, it’s a big land. So flat that you can see miles away. Well, okay. So around where people can find out more about you and if someone would like to approach you to have a chat with you, where can they find you on the internet? Well, I’m always open to having a quick 30-minute call with any founder or investor or any guy, like being a project engineer who is always passionate about construction tech. They can always send me a message on LinkedIn. I may take a little time to respond because a lot of days, my LinkedIn is getting busy and takes time to respond. But I’m always more than happy to connect with anyone. If you are in Dallas or if you’re in Texas somewhere, I can even have coffee with you and talk about the construction tech all day. I’m super passionate about this industry. So they can connect with me on LinkedIn. I think there’s also my email ID. They can also email me anytime. I’m more than happy to support them in any way. Awesome. We’ll put your details in the show notes. Yeah. Thank you very much for coming on. 

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