When we think about construction, we certainly tend to think more so of a fixed mindset, conservative nature to how buildings are designed and built. And when you think about technology, you think about forward-thinking, innovators creating new products and interesting ways to solve problems with technology. I think it comes down to the people you talk to because there are some fantastic people in construction who are great at doing their job, who are doing their best to innovate with. Thank you. Thank you. Hello everybody and welcome to the Bricks and Bytes podcast, your go-to for all things construction and property technology. 

On today’s show, we have James Mayer, who is the CEO of HAAP Pro. James is on a mission to build a platform for housebuilders, property developers, architects, and contractors to build high-quality, low-carbon, and net-zero homes in the most efficient way possible. In this episode, we talk about sustainability and the creation of better quality homes. Please check us out on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you enjoyed, please leave us a review. This helps us get more amazing guests to give you guys the best and most informative content on technology in the built world. 

Before we dive in, shout out to The Hyphen Beta. If you want to connect with some of the biggest players in the construction tech world, including tier one building contractors, some of the biggest construction tech companies, investors, and advisors, check them out by visiting www.the-hyphen-beta.com. 

You are listening to Bricks and Bytes podcast, where we take you on a journey in construction, technology, and business. Alright, let’s get this episode started. James, your background is very much in the services of buildings, so all things mechanical and electrical. What made you go from traditional consulting roles to starting up Hub Pro? I think that’s a really interesting question. So I think for me, there are three points in terms of that transition from consulting to starting up Hub Pro.

And the first one is timing. I felt like the time was right to do it. So for me, when we started this journey, it was around August, September last year. COP26 was in October, November time. So there was a big push on sustainability and all things green building at that time. I would say the second point is the opportunity. It felt like it was the right time to get on board, the opportunity was there. And point number three is people. I was working with the right people. I had the right group around me. So we have a business that focuses on mechanical and electrical installations and design, and being around those people and having their support, it felt like it was a good time to embark on this voyage with Hubpro. Something, obviously, both Martin and I work in traditional roles at the moment, with some involvement in technology.

But how do you find the mindset of people in your traditional business and maybe the clients you’re dealing with, and the mindsets of the people that are more interested in technology? Is it more of a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset? I think when we think about construction, we certainly tend to think more so of a fixed mindset, a conservative nature to how buildings are designed and built. When you think about technology, you think about forward-thinking, innovators creating new products and interesting ways to solve problems with technology. I think it comes down to the people you talk to because there are some fantastic people in construction who are great at doing their job, who are doing their best to innovate with what they’ve got. Construction is a difficult industry to innovate in, but there are some great people out there doing things. And likewise, it’s about choosing the right people in technology to work with as well. There are some fantastic people out there who share the same values as I do. And likewise, there are people in technology that may not be a great fit for us. So I think it’s all about finding the people with shared values, whether it’s construction or technology.

And how has the transition been for you? So going from perhaps working where you’ve got a fee and you’re going to be paid at the end of it, to working on something where you’re not really getting paid and the time is like, you’re not really bound by any deadlines, or maybe you have set yourself some things. So how have you found that? It’s a challenge, isn’t it? You have to self-impose deadlines and targets to work towards. And certainly, at the start of the journey, when it was just me on my own, I found it difficult to put those boundaries in place and those deadlines in place because it’s a new thing and you don’t really know what you’re meant to do. There’s no manual that tells you what to do when you’re looking at building a product in the technology space or the B2B SaaS space. I think that for me, the thing that really changed that was understanding that getting people involved in what I was doing was critical because they could hold me accountable to what I was doing and vice versa. We’ve since brought roles into the business. So we have a number of people in the business that work with us on a fractional part-time basis. It certainly helped in terms of setting deadlines and then leveraging their experience and their knowledge to complete certain tasks based on the part of the business that we were focusing on or working on.

Yeah, so I want to touch on this actually. How do you enforce it with KPIs or is there any other smarter way to do this? Because I’m actually just doing this, trying to enforce the same stuff in my business, and it’s challenging, isn’t it? I think KPIs, OKRs, any of those kind of buzzwords, I think they’re all fantastic. My honest opinion with this is when you’re in startup mode right now, it’s best not to go too heavy on setting up KPIs and OKRs, but keeping them broad and keeping that vision in mind of the next stage that you’re trying to get to. I think that KPIs and OKRs are great when maybe you’re a bit more established and you’ve got a team around you. You know you need to hit certain targets. But I think in the early stages, you need to maybe be a bit more reactive to situations or opportunities that are presented, whilst keeping in mind that goal, that next goal that you’re trying to reach. So I would say keeping it fairly simple, and maybe just a few scribbles on a piece of paper, revisiting them every week. That’s kept me on track and on target in this early stage process.

Yeah, and a selfish question actually, because as someone who is in the process of potentially appointing some fractional roles in the business I’m working with, how do you go about doing that? How do you ensure that they’re giving you true value for money? Is it like you sit down with them for an hour a week, and then they say, “Right, by the end of this week, we’re going to achieve XYZ”? Or are they just sort of consulting with you and giving you nice advice, but not perhaps executing where that responsibility comes down to you? I think it depends, and it comes down to choosing the right people, doesn’t it? Having gone through, you know, the better part of 18 odd years working in different roles in construction and running various businesses, I think that you start to build up an understanding of how to communicate with people, how to get the best out of those people, and who you want to work with and who you don’t want to work with.

So when the opportunity presents itself to talk to someone who might be able to help with my business with HubPro, it’s those early stage conversations and understanding what their values are, what they’re driven by, what they’ve worked on previously.

Obviously, what they’re trying to do now, and for me, that’s the number one thing with any business, whether it’s a tech startup business or a construction business, it’s choosing the right people. And once you’ve got the right people on board, get them in the right seat, the right position, and support them as much as you can, and they’re going to do their best for you. Yeah, but also, Owen, I think if you’re doing something for the first time, then the role of advisors or mentors, external mentors, is crucial because how do you know how to evaluate things that you don’t know? Yeah, especially in the startup world, it’s wild. It’s not like a traditional business where it’s pretty basic to go out there and get your first client and do what you know to do.

When you’re trying to market to the mass market or create funky sales funnels, or invest in bringing new technology, and you’re speaking to your technical team and they mention you need to invest in Kubernetes or something like that, I’m like, “What the hell is that?” So you obviously need to surround yourself with the right people, James. I totally agree with that – the right advice and have the interest of the business, I guess, at the forefront. And I’d also like to swiftly transition into our next question because, James, when we were talking not so long ago, and I’m guessing this is maybe a fractional role, maybe someone you’ve appointed full time, but it was the importance you mentioned of having a chief product officer. So, can you share some more insight on that? Because it’s something that really, really interested me.

Yeah, absolutely. The chief product officer role came about for me and our business when we were looking for someone. We thought we needed someone technical to help us build what we thought we wanted to build in the early days. Through a contact, I was introduced to someone whose role was as head of product. I didn’t really understand what that role entailed or how they would be able to help. I was thinking we just needed a technical person to help us build what we were going to build. This product guy, Gary, has been incredible in shaping our product and what it is that we want to develop, and what that process could look like.

So, a couple of points on what Gary’s done and how he’s helped us. He’s really been someone that’s been there on hand to answer questions, to question the tech team in terms of, at the moment, we’re building our MVP. He can hold our developers accountable. So, it’s kind of that middle layer between me as the person with the idea and the tech people who are executing my vision. He can sit in the middle. He has the ability to look at a prototype that we might have mocked up and understand it from a customer perspective. Maybe we should change this or look at doing something a little bit differently. So, he’s always there to champion the product internally for us.

He helps us articulate the future possibilities of the platform and helps us stay accountable to the roadmap as well, in terms of what we’re planning on doing next and making sure we’re not getting bogged down by creating unnecessary features or building something where maybe a solution already exists, and we can plug it into our offering. He ensures that we’re concentrating on the core part of our offering. He helps us prioritise. He can keep score in terms of where we are at the moment. He looks at tactical and strategic importance as well.

So, I mean, the role is huge and varied, but it’s been, it’s certainly going back to one of your previous questions, someone that’s helped keep me accountable to what I need to be doing as well. Traditionally, startups, you’re obviously starting with technology. And I think if you’re going for an industry like construction, it’s almost mandatory that you need someone technical on the team to start with. But construction is slightly different because, in my personal opinion, if you try and introduce too much cutting-edge technology early on, the industry does not react well to it. We still have people using paper and basic Excel on site. So actually, going for something in between, which is like technology is one end before that, sounds like a sensible route to take.

Their role as a chief product officer, are they making sure that what you are building is going to work? I guess you don’t know that, but is it along what customers want as opposed to perhaps what you as a founder want? For us, we engaged in some qualitative research in the construction industry, our target clients, to understand what their pains are and what they would hope to get from that based on what we’re building. So, Gary looks and makes sure that we’re keeping aligned with that and we’re not drifting off because of something that I might want to build or I think is a great idea. That’s certainly part of his role as well – to keep us accountable, hold us accountable to what we’re trying to build, and keeping it customer-focused.

Building on your question, Owen, I don’t think customers are always right in terms of what they need because there is a prevalent way of people doing business currently, and innovating within this current business model doesn’t mean that it’s the best way to innovate. So basically, we deliver the same or similar products, slightly innovated, but the question is, does it change anything materially? I remember we spoke with VCs on this podcast a few weeks ago, and they said that the best founders, the best ideas are from founders who are insanely focused on solving the problem, which is probably not just tweaking the current business model but completely reshaping it.

So, in a few words, it’s about making big changes as opposed to minor tweaks. James, what would you say? Do you think, I guess I made a point and I wonder if you agree with it, that going down the product officer route, for maybe someone considering launching a startup in this space, is better than putting all your eggs into trying to find a technological officer? I think it depends on your strengths and knowledge that you have. Certainly for us, it was the right thing to do because we didn’t know, there was no one who had an in-depth understanding of how to develop a SaaS platform. And if we’d gone straight out to someone that could help us do that, or if we’d hired developers internally to start to build that, how do we know the best way of communicating with them? How do we put across the milestones that we want delivered in a way that they understand? And Gary’s helped us break that down.

So concepts and things that are new to me, like agile in terms of the process, looking at epics and sprints – an epic is a big part of the product that you want to build and then breaking that down into sprints. How does a sprint work, how much work should go into a sprint, what length of time should a sprint run for, how do you find out at the end whether the work’s done, how do you see that you do a demo? What’s the definition of done, when is the sprint ready to go? All of this stuff I’m learning and finding out about, so I didn’t know any of this before Gary came along. So he’s been instrumental in helping us with that bridge between, as I said, myself and the developers. Yeah, James, just don’t mention Gary’s surname on this podcast because headhunters are listening to this. Ha ha ha ha. Sounds like the guy that’s doing a lot.

So should we move swiftly to Hubpro? And maybe you can tell us what does Hubpro do and what the product is, speaking of products. Absolutely, the purpose behind Hubpro is to help design better performing homes that reduce cost and increase quality in less time. So we do that by partnering with architects and developers to evaluate and specify residential master plans to enable next-level design and build of homes of the future, delivering more for less today. So that’s our little pitch, which I hope sums it up quite well. In terms of how we do that, the solution is a B2B SaaS platform targeted to architects and developers, specifically for house building and retrofit housing sectors. We’re creating our own proprietary technology, the Hubpro engine, which is based around simulation and calculation algorithms. The process involves uploading a set of drawings.

The more information those drawings have, the better the quality of information we’re able to process and help output. So we’re looking at how we can help achieve net zero. And we do that by looking at a baseline building and then comparing it in terms of cost and performance to any number of outcomes. So it’s giving you more than one outcome. Traditionally, where you might go to a consultant to appoint them to carry out a design, with Hubpro, you’re able to get a multitude of designs at any given stage based on the amount of information you’re able to upload to the platform. So, is the product B2B or B2C or both? It’s B2B, with a focus on architects and property developers.

So, James, just explain how it works a little bit more. If you are an architect, say you draw up some nice plans for someone’s house, or is it residential? Yes, we’re focused on the residential market. We’re all familiar with BIM and BEM, so building information modelling and energy modelling. There are incumbent solutions out there which are fantastic at helping complex, large projects in terms of information modelling and energy modelling. But those incumbent solutions aren’t always great when it comes to residential schemes. Our product breaks that barrier down and brings the features and benefits that house builders want from BIM and BEM software and brings it into their niche. So it really takes away all of the complicated parts that aren’t relevant and distils it down into something that’s relevant to them.

An architect designs a project and then uploads the plans to our platform. Then our software, is it an automatic system which can use various technology to identify and then advise on what someone should do to get it up to, is there a base, like different green levels? As mentioned at the beginning of the show, we’re currently building our MVP. The MVP is about having the core functionality of the idea functional. If we talk about where we would like to go, our plan is that those 2D drawings that architects produce in the residential construction space would be uploaded, and the metadata from the drawing measurements and other details on those drawings would be extracted. Right now, it’s a manual process to extract that information from the drawing and upload it to the platform. In the future, we’d love for that process to be automated. Once that information has been gathered, it then goes through the Hubpro engine and gives you a range of outputs depending on what your priority is. So if your priority is cost or if your priority is to build to net zero or improve over baseline building regulations, it looks at the constraints.

So constraints being things like roof space, if PVs are a consideration, and any other factors that are unique to the specific house. We’ll look at a master plan as well as a single house. So we’re not limited to just looking at a single unit. We look at the master plan as there’s a bigger picture to that as well. It’s interesting to look into this because you mentioned that the software is for architects and developers. As a structural engineer, I need to say something about it because there’s a lot of carbon put into the building due to engineering, and heavy engineering creates, first of all, a lot of spending on the build and a large carbon footprint. So how would that be managed within Hubpro? In terms of carbon calculation? Yes.

You know, for specific products and materials, there are EPDs that can be used. I’m sure you’re familiar with those as well. And then looking at concrete, depending on the options. So, you know, the amount of concrete used, that kind of thing, and newer technologies. So, you know, low carbon concrete, things like that and comparing those options, based on the values that manufacturers have for carbon. I think some of it is also like educating structural engineers to not overdesign everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that’s a great point. That’s something very interesting. You agree with that. You might have taken the bait. Listen, because currently, how it happens, we have to comply with building regulations, Eurocodes or British standards. And these don’t care about net zero carbon, carbon neutral, zero carbon, whatever term you want to use. They don’t care. You want the structure to be safe and sound.

Actually, that’s a good segue to my next question: is there any legislation or regulation that designers can follow to improve the sustainability of the end product, the home, if you know any? This is something that’s starting to move at pace now. So you guys will be familiar that the Future Homes Standard is coming out in 2025. Regulations are more recent. I think that in terms of sources for reference, RIBA has some good information out there. As well as RIBA, I think the UK Green Building Council is a good place to start looking in terms of benchmarks and performance. Okay, yeah. On that note, and maybe this is a little controversial opinion, but my experience and what I’ve seen throughout people in the industry is there is a hell of a lot of talk, but there’s absolutely or basically zero action.

I do feel like people are trying very hard in this sustainability space to just get a piece of the pie, and they’re not actually necessarily interested in taking the industry to the next level. Yeah, exactly. It’s become this trendy subject. This has probably been the case for like a year or so. People are talking and talking and talking. More people are trying to get on there. So many different standards are coming out, businesses are trying things, and people are putting on their websites, “We are a green company.” All that kind of thing. I think, James, maybe you mentioned it; it’s greenwashing. What’s your opinion on that? Is it something that maybe you’re trying to tackle? Tell me what you think.

Let’s take a typical client. If we think of an SME developer, for example, and you’re chatting to the CFO, financial director, managing director, if you go in and you’ve got a product that can help with sustainability, whatever that is, and you go in and lead with sustainability, and you talk about ESG, they’re going to be completely deaf to that. They’re going to be lost in the conversation, right? Because right now, their priority, and rightly so, is to make a profit on what they’re building. So I think reframing that conversation and going in and saying, “Hey, do you want to do more with less?” and rephrase it. Look at it another way. What can you get more of? You can get more comfort, you can get lower energy bills, and really start to reframe the conversation. And you can start to weave profit into that. You can start to weave sustainability into that. I think leading with sustainability perhaps isn’t the right way of tackling it. I think as years go by, as we progress, it may well be, especially with ESG and double materiality. So investors are looking at not only the profit on their investment and how that singly relates to ESG, but the ongoing effects of the developments and how it might affect flooding, for example, or communities or any bigger picture that isn’t tied to their investment. So that’s something that I see coming, and that will be driven down from the top.

Yeah, well, I can only reiterate what you said in terms of what you asked about in terms of people just talking about it. In my practice, we do probably 100, 120 projects in a year, and in the last four and a half years since I’ve been running the business, we only had one green project, which after costing, was reduced to traditional cavity construction walls and everything else. It happens on every project. Every project I’m involved with sees the cost, and it’s like, “Sorry, can’t afford it.” Yeah, it sounds like we have a long way to go. It does. I think it’s about reframing, right? We talk about green buildings, but surely green buildings should just be the buildings that we’re building.

I think that maybe putting “green” in front of it is a blocker to people. If we start talking about better performing buildings, do you want a better performing home? Do you want lower energy bills? Do you want a more comfortable space for your family to live in? Do you want fewer issues with condensation? No one’s going to say no to those things because people want that. Yeah, the thing is that I think it all should come from the regulators, unfortunately, as much as I hate them, it should come from the government and we should be hammered by the regulation that, okay, the U-value that you have to provide for the wall is half of the one that you used to do now, right? Because otherwise, we will always be looking for, well, developers will always be looking for profit, not necessarily for sustainable solutions for the long term. Sounds like we need to get one of the regulators on here, Martin, to explain. Oh, that would be great. Yeah.

Cool. All right, let’s move swiftly on. So in your journey, James, building Hub Pro, what are some of the biggest mistakes you’ve made and what did you learn? It’s definitely not getting Gary on board. Yeah, you can tell, right? Having the right people is key. So I think for me, at the beginning of the journey, it was getting fixated on the idea and perfecting the idea. So thinking that you’ve got everything figured out. That for me was the biggest waste of time, not something you should be focusing on doing. The one thing that I’ve learned working with the team that I’ve got is, it’s all about iteration. So it’s coming up with an idea, trying to validate the idea or not validate the idea, depending on what it is, and then just constantly iterating on what you’ve got. So whether that is on the product, so improving the product, or whether, going back to one of your previous questions, Martin, that’s on KPIs and so your business is getting a bit more developed. So iterate on that process of just having a few notes written down on goals that you’re working towards. Maybe now’s the time to bring some KPIs into it. And a KPI can be as simple as posting on LinkedIn once a day to try and build up your brand and people’s awareness of you, anything like that. So yeah, I would say that’s my biggest learning from all of this was trying to get it right at the beginning. It’s not great. Not great. Yeah.

It’s tricky because you’re in a place now which is so far from where you want to be. And that just causes so much confusion because you’re like, you don’t have the resources, you don’t have the market knowledge, you don’t have money, team, whatever it is to do that. But at the same time, you need to go out there and you need to go and earn some money with what you’ve got. And it’s almost, I know it’s like very cliché, but you listen to people in Y Combinator and they say like, if you’re not embarrassed by your first product, then you’re doing something wrong.

But that’s still such a hard pill to swallow, that statement as well. I think you have to have reached a point in your journey where you have confidence. It’s easy to say to be embarrassed by your product, but that only works if you’ve got the confidence to carry that forward. Maybe at the start of my journey with Hubpro, I wasn’t as confident or as bullish as I am now with what we’re building. I know when we get to the end of January when we have an MVP, I’m happy to go out there knowing that it’s not the finished product. It’s not polished. There are lots of bits that aren’t quite right, but the core functionality will help some people. And for me, it’s about going out there and making sure that core functionality delivers on what I want it to be able to do and help people. And then once you’ve done that, you start to build a bit of traction with customers. And you can start to build, iterate, and improve.

Yeah, so the whole idea of validate and iterate is like, if you want to put it in other words, it’s failing very often and very quickly. Yeah, so just do something, see if it turns out not to be good, and not think about it too much, or learn obviously from the mistake and move on.

Yeah, and I read something on that as well. It’s like the best startups are the ones that can move through that quickly. So like you need to build a team which can do something, if it works, go with it, if it doesn’t, you need to be able to very, very quickly adapt to the next thing. And that’s basically someone’s argument for what makes a successful startup.

James, maybe one more for me. Costs versus benefits. In terms of this hack, sustainable housing and traditionally built housing. Is there any rough idea? I’m not going to hold you accountable for anything you say here. Is there a rough idea or estimate that you can tell us how much more expensive currently it is to build something which is sustainable to a certain benchmark or is it too difficult to say?

I think it’d be remiss of me if I didn’t include one of my favourite topics which is around commissioning heating systems because the easiest way to improve performance is by commissioning systems properly. So whether it’s an air source heat pump, or even if it’s a gas boiler, commissioning a system properly, setting the flow rates right, balancing the system right can offer a massive increase. And that could just be the difference between spending a little bit more on the firm that does the installation, who knows the commissioning process better, and who’s sized the radiators correctly.

It can be as small as that, and it can be as vast as we all know – implementing higher insulation levels, putting more technology into the house, technology being PVs to generate electricity, battery storage, all of those things that we see more and more prevalent today. But I think in answer to your question, Martin, a great place to look at that is the UK Green Building Council released a report. I think it was last month, around cost and uplift versus a baseline building, one that had some intermediate changes and then a stretch goal. So there are a lot of areas to break down, isn’t there? There’s the build, there’s the services, there’s the structure, there’s the fit-out, there’s the sanctuary – there’s a lot to consider.

Yeah, and the maintenance obviously for the next 20 years, yeah? I think that’s a great point as well, isn’t it? Because I think there’s a lot to be said as much as there’s a drive to use more technology for good in homes. I think there’s also a compelling argument to scale down on the amount of tech in a home to make it easier to maintain. And I think there’s a lot of technology out there that is promising things that it can’t deliver on or where the payback period is too long. An example of that is smart lighting control. Well, if we’ve got energy-saving LEDs that are running at eight or 10 watts, then how long is a 70 quid intelligent light switch going to have in terms of payback versus a five quid switch?

Yeah, yeah, but you’re missing some gains because you can make your bedroom red in colour if you want to or blue, or you can make the lights flash when your team scores a goal or something like that. You can do all of those things, can’t you? It just comes down to, I guess, what the occupant wants. And I guess if it’s energy saving versus novelty, the novelty factor is high, but the sustainability score might be a bit lower.

Yeah, and the return period on the smart light switches decreases in time because the energy prices are going up. So yeah. Yeah, very much so. If you’re lighting some very romantic light in your bedroom and it’s making you produce children, and the prices get even higher, right? Anyway, let’s go on to some off-topic stuff. So James, what is your number one productivity tip for people? Maybe building a start-up or just generally?

Productivity tip. For me personally, it’s getting into a space where you don’t have any notifications disturbing you, right? So understanding this is the thing that I want to do. So maybe it’s building a landing page or writing some text or writing a LinkedIn post – no distractions. So phone in a drawer on airplane mode if you can, or at least do not disturb, and not opening up any social media, turning off notifications on your phone.

It takes a while, doesn’t it, to be able to get into a zone of feeling comfortable doing that. But I think the more and more you practise it, the more and more valuable that gets, especially as you’re developing a business and you’re getting pulled in more directions, there’s more opportunities, there’s more places you might want to go to, and more people you might want to visit. Those time periods become smaller and smaller. So you need to protect them even more. And I think that reducing distractions really helps.

Okay, totally agree with that. What’s your favourite or a good book that you’ve recently read or anything that you can recommend reading? I’d say one of my all-time greats is probably Traction by Gino Wickman. I think that once you’ve got past, and I know Owen’s a fan as well, or certainly he has got the book. Oh, yeah. I think that talking from previous business experience, initially and certainly from start-up, it might not be so relevant. But when you start to scale that team and you have three, four, five people and you’ve got some traction behind you in terms of market fit, then that book is an incredible model. It is something that has helped me over the years. I’d highly recommend that. It’s a very good book.

Let’s go with favourite hobbies. I’m always interested to hear what people, because people in this space are usually quite, I don’t know if the word is extracurricular. I’m still looking for that word to describe that, but they always seem to have crazy things that they do as well because it’s probably part of the brain, which makes you want to go into this kind of space anyway. So anything, James?

So nothing crazy. I’ve run a marathon more recently. Nothing crazy. I run a marathon. Yeah. Pretty standard. Challenges like that. So I’ve done a few triathlons over the years. Anything kind of longer distance cycling as well. Haven’t done so much recently appeals to me. If you want something interesting, I guess one kind of extracurricular activity that I have planned for a few years’ time is to follow a route across the Pyrenees, like motocross style. So rather than pedal power, engine power across the Pyrenees from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean, I’d love to do that. So that’s on my bucket list of things to do.

Wow. Is it like tangibly planned sometime or not yet? Just kind of like thinking about it? Yeah. It’s similar to what I said about the goals, right? So I’m not at the stage where I can do it yet. So I know that everything I’m doing is working towards being able to do that one day. Very nice.

Okay, James, very insightful. Thanks for sharing everything with us today. So where can people find out more about you? Yeah, so head to my LinkedIn profile, James Major on LinkedIn. Such a cool name, by the way. Thank you. You’ll be able to find links to HubPro website and Hub Engineering Services, their contracting business on there as well.

Excellent, eh? Thank you very much, James. Thanks for having me on the show, guys. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you very much for tuning in to this episode of the Bricks and Bites podcast. If you are enjoying the show, please feel free to rate, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. We really appreciate it, and we’ll catch you in the next episode.