Bricks And Bytes Podcast
April 28, 2023

#028 -Delia Visan – Transcript

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#028 -Delia Visan - Transcript
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Show Notes

Delia Visan

Another important thing would be to try to ensure that your customer has every single resource and every single guidance and support they need to be able to see the value that your product offers. Because in the end, it’s not enough to just have an amazing product if the customer doesn’t see the value of that product. So you need customer success for that. And at the same time, it’s not enough to just have an amazing customer success department. If your product isn’t, let’s say, irreplaceable, right? So in the end, it’s a mix; customer success becomes a bridge between the customers and your business.
What’s up, everyone, and thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Bricks and Bytes podcast, your go-to for all things construction and property technology.  On today’s podcast, we speak with Delia Visan, Head of Customer Success at Bright Spaces and a top influencer in the space of customer success. In Delia’s episode, we dive deep into the definition of customer success and why it is important, customer success strategies for construction and proptech companies, and future trends in the customer success world. 

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You are listening to the Bricks and Bytes podcast, where we take you on a journey in construction, technology, and business. Alright, let’s get this episode started. Delia, all the way from Romania, it looks to me like you have worked mostly in Romanian tech companies. So what’s the technology and start-up life like there? 

I think I’m one of the lucky ones who got to work in corporations such as Microsoft and Oracle. And to be honest, here in Romania, we have a lot of experts and IT specialists, which I think determine the corporations to open subsidiaries in Romania, which is brilliant because, in the end, it’s a win-win situation. We have specialists who have the chance to work for corporations that invest in their career development. And at the same time, we have corporations that have the best experts and their expertise that can make a difference in those companies’ businesses. So from the technology scene perspective, we have, let’s say, a pretty rich environment. And when it comes to the start-up ecosystem in Romania, we have around 150-160 start-ups in this field of innovation, digitalisation, and so on. So the thing is that the number gets bigger and bigger every year. 

Is it in PropTech or Contact, or in general in start-ups? In general. The start-up I’m working with, Brightspaces, this is PropTech. So I’m going to dive a bit later on that. But in Romania, being an entrepreneur, it has ups and downs, and it’s a bit of a struggle. Last week, for example, I went to Brussels, and I met a couple of start-up owners, discussing the whole start-up ecosystem with the ups and the downs. And that was pretty intense and pretty interesting. Any insights? 

Well, yeah. I mean, the thing is that somehow, I must say, I really admire the Romanian entrepreneurs because we seem to have a way of making things work and making things happen. And sometimes just making sure that you keep your hope and you keep your motivation and determination is actually what makes the difference from this perspective. Persistence. Exactly. Yeah, sounds good. 

Okay, maybe touching on this still actually. So in terms of the start-up ecosystem and like tech development in general, is it like a lot of work being exported to other countries? Or like what’s the percentage of people working in exporting the tech outside or just working on start-ups within Romania? The target is to somehow export or not necessarily export, but make sure that they are not just local, but extend your business to other countries as well. And it seems that there’s a bigger interest in the US, for example, for the moment. It seems that we somehow think that we have more chances if we go in that direction than if we keep it locally. And of course, yeah, as I said, the target is to extend and to become more international. So that’s the biggest goal. 

Yeah. And are tech teams based in Romania? Because it doesn’t sound like when you speak to people, countries come up like India always comes up and Ukraine always comes up as a key place people outsource. It’s the same. I don’t hear it in Romania. So have you experienced that? 

Yeah, I think it depends either you have in-house tech teams or you have outsourced tech teams. But in my opinion, I think that the idea is, I mean, depending on the business, of course, but I think the idea is to have as much as you can in-house because that’s going to help you with the whole mentality and the whole mindset of the business to just have all the team together and working in the same direction. I think that’s a bit easier to manage from my perspective. 

Okay, so starting with your LinkedIn profile, you are clearly passionate about customer success. So when did you discover customer success and what do you love about it? Yeah, well, actually customer success is one of my two biggest passions. I discovered the concept back in 2020 when it started appearing in Romania. But during some recent conversations, I realised that I was doing customer success way before it became official in Romania. What I love about customer success is the fact that it’s not a simple concept. For example, you either get 100% involved in building, maintaining, and constantly innovating your customer relationships, or that’s not customer success. So you have to be willing to put an equal sign between your customer success and your own success. And practically, this is one of the fields where you can totally make a difference since it involves a lot of empathy, active listening, communication, and in the end, putting yourself in your customer’s shoes. 

So you’re saying customer success is one thing; another thing is the success of the business? No, actually, like every business should consider that their own success is their customer success, right? Because we are creating products and services based on specific market needs. So we are trying to help those customers achieve their goals whilst using our products and services. So if they achieve their goals while using our products and services, this means they are successful and we are successful as well, because the customers become loyal and they remain as our partners moving forward. 

Dade, is customer success something you’ve always done in terms of the proptech world, or is it sort of spread out in other industries? And my next question would be, does it differ in the proptech world compared to other industries? I think in the end, customer success is a mindset. Of course, depending on the business, there are different approaches. There’s a standard guidance from this customer success perspective, but you have to adjust based on the market, based on the customer, based on the segmentation. In the end, you have to take what’s beneficial from that standard guidance and adjust it as needed in your customer interactions. 

Okay, so just for like the people, for us that don’t necessarily understand what customer success is. So how would you define it in the simplest term? Well, customer success is a mindset when, for example, every single person and every single team in a business understand that the end goal is to retain those customers. And in order for the customers to become loyal and keep their partnerships up and running, you need to provide that customer with all the support and guidance they need in order to achieve their desired business outcomes. So it’s not just about providing support, let’s say from the technical perspective or from the commercial perspective, but it’s more about going the extra mile for that customer to make sure that they are happy and they are close to you and your business. 

Okay. So speaking of this, actually, so what are the ways to keep this customer success at a top level? Give me the checklist. Well, first of all, I think there are a couple of keywords when it comes to customer success. I would say first of all, empathy. I mean, every successful partnership starts with a real human connection, in my opinion. So you can have amazing customer interactions if you know how to approach every single customer in the right way. It’s important that, as a customer success manager, you are able to ask questions and actively listen to your customers and understand their needs so that afterward you can help them achieve their business outcomes. I would say that another important thing would be to try to ensure that your customer has every single resource and every single guidance and support they need to be able to see the value that your product offers. Because in the end, it’s not just about having an amazing product if the customer doesn’t see the value of that product. So you need customer success for that. And at the same time, it’s not enough to just have an amazing customer success department if your product is not necessarily, let’s say, an irreplaceable one. Right? So in the end, it’s a mix. Like customer success becomes a bridge between the customers and your business. 

Mm-hmm. Good answer. Where does it start? Does it start perhaps even before the sales begin? Or is it? Like, yeah, we closed it down. Now, I like CLA. Here’s a customer success department. Well, usually customer success starts right after the contract is signed. But now we see that one of the trends of the customer success field is the fact that customer success also has, let’s say, valuable insights on the ideal customer profile. So the customer success somehow gets involved in the customer acquisition process as well. And I think it might be a bit courageous to say, but I think that customer success can help your business end to end from this perspective. 

I agree. If you focus on the customer, then at the beginning, before they start engaging with you formally, then you want to give them something informative for free. So they are sure that you are the right person, at least based on my business. I can see this works well. And then obviously, if they want, they can engage formally, but it’s up to them. Yeah, practically. So once you introduce the customer success to your customer, they can see that there’s one person that’s dedicated to helping them throughout the whole customer journey. And that’s super valuable for any customer because we are living right now in these times when customers are no longer looking just for the product or for the service, but they are looking for the whole experience. And customer success can provide the whole experience and make it satisfactory so that the customers remain. And what do you say to, because I think one of the struggles with people on this podcast, particularly its implementation of their technology solutions. 

So is customer success responsible for the implementation? And how do you not force people, but encourage people to actually use customer success? Because just personal experience, like if I sign up for a software or something like that, and then someone asks me to sit down for an hour for them to explain it, it’s very difficult for me to just actually put that time aside and put the effort in. So do you have any pointers? 

Yeah, so the idea with customer success is that a customer success manager is trying to help the customer and not just make them waste their time in inefficient meetings or business reviews or robotic interactions and stuff like that. So the thing is that once you get to understand the value that customer success can bring to you as a business and to your customers, step by step you’ll start implementing the whole mindset in your business. Now, when it comes to the role of customer success, I think that differs, I mean, depending on the business, because it’s not just customer success from the business perspective, but can also be the operational customer success side of the department. You can also have the analytical part, let’s say the data analytics. You can have the upsell part of customer success. So this is why I’m saying that I might be a bit courageous, but I truly believe that customer success can actually have, let’s say, responsibilities from the whole end-to-end business perspective and when it comes to the touchpoint and everything. So I think that’s very important to remember. 

Yeah. Another one for me really is about when companies should implement customer success. And the reason I ask is because, yeah, it sounds like a difficult position to at least start with in your very early days when you’re just selling and trying to get on your own two feet. So what’s your thoughts? 

I think that every company should implement the customer success department once they have, let’s say, two or three customers, because you need one person to be able to start working on some procedures and some processes and keep those first customers close, while gathering some feedback maybe for product improvement. Because you have those customers that can provide valuable insight on the market trends, and they can also recommend your services or your product to some other customers. If those customers are being taken care of by a customer success manager, for example, you can create customer success stories that can be heard by other customers, and this also helps with the customer acquisition process. So I think it’s a must to have at least one person at the beginning to test the waters and gather some feedback and make sure that the feedback is taken into consideration moving forward as you improve your products for the future, let’s say customers. Yeah, makes sense. It becomes part of your customer development strategy overall. Exactly. Yeah. 

Okay, speaking of customer success and before we go to bright spaces, so customer obsession and the customer isn’t always right. These two are contradicting each other. So as an example, famous VC Vinod Khosla once said that customers are not always right. Steve Jobs, you obviously know who that person is, said some people say give customers what they want, but this is not my approach. So Delia, what do we do? 

Well, that’s a trigger question. That’s a good question. Yeah, I hear a lot of companies saying that they are customer-obsessed and they seem to put a certain pressure on this idea. But I think that, in my opinion, customer obsession is no longer the trend. The trend now is to be able to keep customers successful while keeping your business successful. So, clearly you are creating a product or a service based on the needs of a specific market. Once you have your customers, you have to provide them with all the resources they need and all the guidance and support and so on. But meanwhile, even if you are, let’s say, so customer-oriented, you have to make sure that this does not affect your business development, your product roadmap, and so on. So you have to keep your business scalable as well. And in this case, I’m a very big fan of workarounds. I think that if they are used properly, they can totally save a lot of situations. And then there’s also a saying, “give customers what they need, not what they want.” But the thing is, usually customers request what they want, or at least what they think they want. What they know, what they are aware of. 

Exactly. And this is where customer success can make a difference and work their magic. Because when a customer request doesn’t seem aligned to the previous agreements, a CSM can work their magic and guide the customer towards realising that their request is not necessarily a must-have, but it’s a nice-to-have. And this, at the end, changes the outcome. So again, I recommend customer success to all businesses. 

Sounds very good. All right, so we’ll move on to Bright Spaces then. And your role, you are the head of customer success there, right? 

Exactly. On that note. So yeah, can you just tell us a little bit about Bright Spaces? Maybe when it was founded and what you guys do? 

Bright Spaces is a European venture-backed proptech startup. The idea of Bright Spaces was born in April 2019 when our team won the first real estate hackathon in Romania, which was organised by Proptech Romania. Three months later, the team was voted number one at the Proptech Demo Day by various investors from all over Romania. And what we are currently offering is a digital marketing and leasing solution for office spaces. And we are somehow trying to help the real estate industry and to support the industry with the need for digitising the industry to facilitate and streamline real estate space marketing and rental processes. So practically, what we are doing is to offer 3D replication solutions for physical spaces, like digital twin versions, as we call them. A one-stop shop for information with all the technical specifications and all the relevant details for a potential tenant. For example, design options like fit-outs, points of interest around the building, real-time availability, and also on the same platform, we have the option for a potential tenant to request an offer or to schedule a visit directly to a specific space. I think that’s very important because according to a US Proptech and Real Estate Study from 2021, more than 85% of prospective tenants would like to see a space virtually before going to visit it in person. 

That’s interesting. Yeah. Sounds like I would tend to agree with that. Maybe I’m a little bit biased, but it makes sense; why waste your time, especially with COVID, everyone wants everything done so quickly and we’re still in that remote mindset. Why would you spend an hour going somewhere to see it just to say you don’t like it when you can do that on your screen? 

Exactly. We just want one online platform and everything. And the thing is that we have seen some trends that are going to come soon. One of them is related to the iBuyers, that new generation of young people who are, yeah, iBuyers. So there are people who are willing to buy houses without even visiting them first. So I think that’s the future of…bubble. Absolutely. Yeah. But that’s the future of the whole industry. 

Is your customer the people that are like selling or leasing the units? Or is it the leasing managers? And how does the customer success process work when dealing with the lease owners? 

Well, the thing is that our customer success process focuses not only on the tactical but also on the strategic side of our customer’s business. So we are trying to understand their needs, create a specific timeline for the project implementation, and afterwards, keep them updated about the progress. The Customer Success Team works with the sales team for the handover process. And then we work with the marketing team for analytics and other tracking tools. And then we also work, of course, with the product team for the implementation and stabilisation phases of the whole customer lifecycle. So what we are constantly trying to do is to make the most out of the solution while providing them with all the resources they need in order to have a smooth onboarding experience. And I think one of the most important things here at Bright Spaces is the fact that we are all aligned on the end goal, which is, of course, customer retention. And this determines a great collaboration between teams, especially between the customer success team and the product team. And this is exactly what is needed because statistics also say organisations with aligned customer success and product management teams experience less churn, meaning churn is when a customer opts out of the contract. So practically, they leave your company. So yeah, I mean, having this internal alignment very well-structured, this can totally help with customer retention. 

Delia, in terms of geography, is Bright Spaces designed for the Romanian market or not necessarily? 

Not necessarily. No. We have customers from the UK and Hungary at the moment. 

Very nice. Any future plans for you guys? 

Well, I think that for next year, we predict that the whole development of digital twins is going to be accelerated and the way they are going to be used in construction processes as well as in the commercial presentation, management, and rental of spaces. So in this regard, we are focusing on continuing to invest in learning and to improve our products to meet the market needs and at the same time, continue to be a reliable partner for our customers. 

Just something came to my head when you were chatting earlier about iBuyers. When we think about it, it is impossible to think that someone is buying a product, for example, this iBuyer, without knowing how it is going to look like. So with construction, visualisations, models and all of this is like buying the drawing, hoping that the drawing will turn into a nice building or a nice extension or project. So clearly, there is disruption that has to happen in this 3D design/render space. Yeah. Also, how you feel when you’re in it, right? You can look at it, but when you get, if you build something and then suddenly you realise, oh, I feel a little bit uncomfortable, like the ceilings are too low or something’s in the way, and how you use that space as well. Space utilisation is an interesting area. I think there’s an opportunity there. 

Okay. So you said that customer success is one of your passions. There’s, and there’s one more passion. 

Yeah, indeed. I’m actually a writer. Oh, nice. I write during my free time. Yeah. I have a blog and I wrote a couple of books, but of course, at the local level, nothing too fancy. Are they in English? Some poems on my blog are in English, but the books are in Romanian. I’m currently trying to translate one of them to see if I can, you know, put it out there on the market. But yeah, that’s my second passion. Oh, cool. Where can people find out, find your blog? It’s at delia.ro, but I’m going to give you the link because it’s in Romanian, actually. So. OK, sure. Yeah. Nice. I’m sure there are some funky new AI tools out there that can translate that for you. I know there’s a lot of hype at the moment about certain ones. Yeah, so I’ve heard. 

Okay, so I think we touched on this a little bit, but what are some future trends that you see in the world of customer success? I think that some of the most important would be the need to be able to approach each customer in a customised way. Because right now, I see that people are trying to segment the customers, the portfolio into different categories of customers. And unfortunately, there’s no one, let’s say, standard recipe for success in customer success. So the idea is to try and see what works for each customer of yours and try to customise or personalise the approach for every single customer in your interaction. That would be the first trend. 

The second trend would be the idea to use as much data and as much technology as you can as a customer success manager. You should be aware of every single important aspect of your customer’s business and of your partnership in order to help them achieve their business goals. 

And of course, the third one would be, and I think that’s also a very, very important one, when it comes to the proactive work of customer success. I think that the trend is to start working on premortem processes and escalation prevention processes. Identify the possible issues with your product or your service, for example, that customers at some point may face. So try to solve the issue before it becomes an issue to your customers, which unfortunately, this leads to customer satisfaction and churn in the end. 

Yeah. Something that came out of that that sparked my curiosity was what you said about segmenting customers. Is it like, do you base your strategy on a segment or is it really down to the individual level as well? Obviously, you can say like females between the age of 30 and 55, whatever. But really everyone is also very different about how they want things done. 

So when I said about the segmentation of the portfolio, it’s mostly related to the customer’s business. Sometimes it depends. For example, it’s maybe on the revenue aspect, or maybe on the culture aspect, or maybe, you know, on the needs aspect or on the product feature aspects and so on. So practically the segmentation can take turns from this point of view. The thing is that no matter what your segmentation would be, my recommendation is not to lose sight of any of your customers because it doesn’t really matter if one segment of your customers doesn’t really bring enough revenue or as much revenue as you think. The idea is from the customer success perspective to make sure that you take care of your customers and help them no matter some other aspects. So I strongly recommend taking care of the customers, no matter the segmentation, and make sure that you keep them close and keep in touch and use all the layers of the customer interaction, customer care, customer education, customer growth, and so on. It’s really important from the customer success perspective. I want to touch on one more thing. 

So do you think that startups should have a different approach to customer success than traditional, small, medium businesses? I think that, of course, there’s no, as I said, there’s no standard recipe, right, for customer success. There’s just a guideline and you take from that guideline what you think can be used and useful for your customers. But startups usually have to take care of the customers and focus on step by step goals. So it’s not just the end goal of customer retention, but in order to get there, you have smaller goals that you have to reach, right? So first of all, make sure that you keep your customers close, because if you keep them close, they are going to provide feedback, and this is exactly what you need in order to know if you are going in the right direction with your product. Then keep your customers close and happy because they can recommend you to other customers as well. 

And when it comes to, let’s say, tech startups and super small businesses, of course, a customer success manager is going to have to approach with very, very much care situations with these customers because you know every single customer has a huge impact on your business. So yeah, that’s that. 

What about satisfaction kind of polls? Yeah, there are a couple of tools that we can use. We have NPS (net promoter score) and then we have customer satisfaction surveys. The thing is that my own approach would not necessarily be a standard survey and impersonal survey, right? To be sent to the customers. We indeed need that for analytics and customer health scores and everything. But my approach is a more human one. So maybe take your customer for a coffee and discuss their business and make them feel heard and seen and understand their needs. And then you can have some sort of a brainstorming session together where you understand their needs related to your product. Understand what trends are around the corner in that specific market so that you know what you can work on proactively to improve your product and make it suitable for other businesses as well. 

I have a question from a friend who wants to know. The question is: how do you deal with customers that you don’t particularly enjoy working with, should I say, or perhaps just don’t like? The idea is that, of course, you can have customers divided into three categories: detractors, passives, and promoters. Detractors are the ones that don’t really want to use the product and are not happy with the whole situation. Passives are in the middle, and promoters are the ones who recommend your product to other companies. 

Of course, you cannot make everyone happy, and that’s okay. You have to focus on what’s important to you, what partnership is important to you, what’s important for your business. Try to understand if there’s something you can do to improve the satisfaction of that specific customer who’s not that happy with your partnership. Because usually, from the customer success perspective, it’s crucial to be curious enough not only to understand the problem but to understand the behind the scenes of that problem. I mean, we are working with people, right? We people get triggered by different aspects. It’s not necessarily just the business side; it’s the personal aspect as well. Especially with B2C interactions. 

So if you get to understand the behind the scenes and if you are empathetic enough, and if you listen actively to your customers, and if you engage in human communication and humanise the conversations, I think it’s going to be easier to understand the reasons why that partnership is not necessarily something that satisfies them and what you can do about that. 

For small businesses, Delia, like up to 10 people, like I suppose we mentioned we touched on startups and maybe you said maybe after your second or third customer, but say you’re like established, maybe you’re a small business and you have like 10 employees and perhaps, you know, your monthly expenses are high and you can’t afford a customer success manager. 

Are there any simple things that people can do just to start assisting more from the customer success front? Yeah. So first of all, as I said several times, I think, I just like repeating myself. Yeah, sure. Go for it. It’s good. If you repeat it, it means it’s a good point. I think that the idea to keep your customers close, that’s the most important thing. Continuous communication with them, trying to understand their needs, trying to understand the pain points, trying to understand their fears, as well, because when it comes to small businesses, it’s important to get behind the scenes, as I already said. So the first thing would be to try to keep your customers close. That partnership will be way easier to build, and the whole communication is going to be more powerful if you are open and authentic and you really care about that whole interaction with your customers. So that would be my first recommendation to keep your customers close. Perfect. 

I think it’s a good time to move to off-topic. I will go for it. So, Delia, when we chatted before, you mentioned that you speak five languages, is that right? Five, yeah. Oh my God. I would actually say four and a half because I haven’t spoken Norwegian in a while, so naturally I still have enough knowledge. Norwegian. Norwegian. Oh wow, okay. I heard that, Martin. Yeah, that’s a good one. Hey, Martin. I have sounded pretty good. 

As a British person, you only ever really speak one language. It’s very rare for us to speak more than one because we don’t really need to and probably because the majority of us are just lazy. And so, on that note, I was reading something about languages you dream in and people say that they have weird dreams when they dream in different languages. So does that happen to you? Never. You’re all imaginative. Yeah, Hamai, what about you? I actually don’t know. We spoke about it earlier today, actually, you and me, but I don’t recall any dream that required attention to language, to be honest. I don’t know. I think if the dream happens abroad, in Poland, in my case, it’s probably a Polish dream, but I don’t know. I never heard anyone saying anything. Okay. I mean, I don’t have any dreams in different languages, but one struggle that I have, as a speaker of four and a half languages, is the fact that when I try to switch from Romanian or from English to a different language, I somehow switch to all of them at the same time. So, in one sentence, I use like four words from different languages. So nobody gets me until I just, you know, structure my archive drawers here and try to, you know, sort it out. 

Okay, so I have a follow-up on this. So this is definitely Romanian, Norwegian, English, and what are the two others, and why? So it’s Romanian, English, well, Romanian is the native one. English, Spanish, French, Swedish, and a bit of Norwegian. Oh, okay. Why did you come about? Like, why did you decide to learn so many languages? It was not necessarily a decision. Well, my sister was a teacher and she studied Romanian and grammar, Romanian grammar, and then French. And I really loved French, like the sound of it, the vibe and everything. And I said, okay, so I want to learn French. But then at school, we also had to learn English. So yeah, well, I learned English as well. And then at university, I said, hmm, maybe it would be interesting to learn a language that not so many people know. So that’s when I chose Swedish. And afterwards, I also studied a bit of Norwegian because they are pretty similar. And well, to be honest, I learned Spanish from telenovelas. So, it sounds like a cliche, but yeah, that’s true. 

Any tips for someone who wants to learn a new language? Like how to do it quickly? Yeah, well, be patient and keep your motivation and hope, because sometimes it can feel like you’re trying to do an impossible thing. But at some point, after a couple of weeks, it’s not going to seem that hard anymore. Just be persistent and be patient. Yeah, cool, good tip. 

Do you have any good resources on customer success skills? To be honest, there are a lot of influencers in the customer success field that I follow on LinkedIn, for example. And they have a lot of learnings and they have a lot of interesting and valuable insights. And there’s also a lot of workshops or trainings on the matter. One of them, for example, is success coaching. That’s an amazing resource for all the customer success managers out there that want to try to improve their skills. So yeah, I’m trying to improve all the time and keep up with the trends and everything that’s changing or happening in the field. 

Can you talk a little bit about the course you’re launching? I’m currently finishing my first course on how to land the customer success job. And moving forward, I’m also trying to structure some courses on how to build your customer success department. Because I think that those two are actually some of the most important topics on the market at the moment. And there are a lot of people trying to get a job in this field, and they don’t really know where to start. So I’m trying to create a resource for everyone who would like to become a customer success manager or, in the end, create their own customer success department. Sounds like a great idea. Thank you. 

Okay. So apart from the course, where can people find out about you and Bright Spaces? On LinkedIn, my profile is Delia Vishan and Bright Spaces is Bright Spaces. And then I also have my blog, as I previously mentioned, and also my business website, which is deliavishan.com. So yeah, you can find a lot of information there. Cool. 

Alright, Delia, well, thank you very much. It’s a super cool masterclass on customer success. I really appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you very much. Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of the Bricks and Bites Podcasts. If you are enjoying the show, please feel free to rate, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. We really appreciate it, and we’ll catch you in the next episode. 

 

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