Bricks And Bytes Podcast

#029 -Josh Graham – Transcript

Josh Graham

On today’s show, we have Josh Graham. Josh is the CEO of tech company eHUB, which uses advanced weather modelling and impact analysis to help construction companies de-risk critical infrastructure projects. In this episode, we talk about Josh’s journey of setting up eHUB, key lessons learned whilst creating his startup, real use cases of blockchain and smart contracts in our industry, and much more. If you’re enjoying our podcast, please check us out on Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you enjoy, please leave us a review. This helps us get more amazing guests to provide you with the best and most informative content on technology in the built world. 

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You are listening to the Bricks and Bytes podcast, where we take you on a journey through construction, technology, and business. Alright, let’s get this episode started. Josh, we are excited to have you on today. 

Can you give us a quick overview of how you got to creating Ehab, which is a weather risk measurement platform for construction? Well, Owen Martin, it’s great to be here. So, Ehab has been a long time in the making. As many startups’ journeys tend to be, they’re very long and winding. I originally was really just interested in the built environment because it’s such an interesting space. It’s obviously got a huge impact on the world, both positive and negative. It felt like a good place to try to launch a startup. Initially, I was trying to build a sustainable property development company. But after many pivots and meeting my co-founder, we eventually pivoted into something much more technical. We were actually originally looking at smart contracts and how we could apply them to construction, as there seemed to be lots of gaps. It was there that we then got onto an accelerator. Then, through that accelerator, we started chatting with more construction companies and speaking with them. Eventually, we applied for a grant. Back in 2020, we received an Innovate UK grant which funded us to build the first smart contract use case for construction. So, through that grant process, that led us to the weather use case. The project was called the Weather Ledger. We did lots of research, spoke to loads of different companies, and worked directly with Bamluttle for a real construction and several others. It was through that we discovered how big of a problem weather is. I guess since the end of that grant in 2021, we haven’t looked back really. 

So, weather obviously connects with the climate, and you mentioned that you tried to create a sustainable property development company. Since you tried it, what were the pitfalls or problems that you came across? Why is it so difficult to do it? We briefly touched on it just before we started recording, talking about blockchain and its use cases. I guess for anything, it feels like the world isn’t really ready to change and move on to solve climate change; we need to change everything. To have blockchain being a major part of the way that we do things, you have to change quite a lot of the habits and the ways we currently work. Everything’s very centralised today, right? Fossil fuel energy is a very centralised form of energy. You have to dig it up, you have to burn it in big power plants, and that gets distributed through the grid. Whereas part of the way that we’re going to solve climate change is by having a distributed energy network with solar panels on everyone’s roofs and batteries in everyone’s cars and houses and all of that sort of stuff. So, it’s moving from a very much centralised to a decentralised way of thinking, the same with blockchain as well, I think. So for me, there are so many barriers that when you’re trying to build a business that isn’t just a business but also has a positive impact on the world, you kind of run into these things that make it harder, make it harder than a traditional business to start. The timing probably wasn’t right for that business, because timing is, of course, probably the main driver of whether a business succeeds or fails. You can’t be too early. Time is very important. Not at all. 

Do you see an opportunity in sustainable property development, maybe, dare I say, now or in the near future? And is there something you’d go back to? Well, I guess you’ve always got to think about the market, right? There’s a huge need for building houses globally. I don’t think there are many markets, maybe Singapore or some of the Nordic countries, that are building enough homes or enough buildings. But there’s a huge amount of homes that need to be built, especially in the global south as well, which has a massive need for affordable housing. It needs to be both affordable and sustainable. We also have to do that whilst meeting our net-zero targets by 2030, by 2050, etc. That kind of problem presents an opportunity. Of course, companies will just want to go and build in the traditional way. But I think more and more people of our age are coming into the market needing properties, and we probably want something more sustainable or maybe even a net-zero home. So, I think the world is shifting in that direction. I would say, you’ve heard that phrase, right? You need to be building the business now for what’s going to be ready in two years, three years’ time. Probably now, just last year or next year, is a good time to start that. I know that the 2020s to the 2030s is going to be the decade where everything changes, or if it doesn’t, then it’s not looking good. But yeah, it might be too late. Hey, Martin, there’s a good idea for you. What’s that? Sustainable property development. Why would that be a good idea for me? I have no idea. I just felt like saying it. No, I think what I’ve got interested in recently is modular housing, and that’s kind of on the sustainable side. I feel like the speed and the costs associated with creating modular housing are interesting. So yeah, I’m exploring this right now. Nice. 

Alright, cool. I’d like to ask you about the Climate Venture Collective as well. But as we’re on the topic of Ehab anyway, what is Ehab? Does it stand for something? Yeah, well, it was originally a housing business. So it was initially trying to be a shortened version of ‘environmental habitation’. The name just kind of stuck. We never changed it. I don’t know, people have said that it doesn’t fit the weather thing, but I still kind of like it. So, yeah, it was initially for the sustainable housing business idea, but it’s just stuck. Alright, cool. 

I noticed earlier on in our discussion, you were talking about a few pivots that you’d done, some grants and whatnot you went through. Did you go through a strong customer development process to identify weather as a problem that you guys wanted to tackle? Yeah, so I think through the grant that we did, the Innovate UK grant, it was up to a year and it was fully funded. So all of the members of the grant had a lot of time to invest in the project. Ultimately, there were months and months dedicated to discovery. That discovery process saw us speaking with people from all over the construction businesses we were working with – legal department, insurance department, planners, people on sites, engineers, all sorts of people really, and trying to dig deep into how weather affected them. We were trying to connect all the dots as to how a construction business really manages weather risk, because it’s not just one person’s job or one part of the business. It’s tied up in your contract, your insurance, the way you plan, and even the methodology you use depending on what type of building or infrastructure you’re constructing. 

It was really interesting to start understanding the complexity of how that risk is managed and how it’s not really thought about by many people as managing risk. The reality is, weather is getting much more extreme because of the climate crisis. It’s one of those things that is already a problem today, but has already got much worse in the last couple of decades and is set to get much worse in the future. It was a really interesting process to understand, and I guess that’s why we’ve stuck with it because we see it’s such a complicated issue. 

Before Ehab, how did risk management look for weather forecasting on construction sites? And what does Ehab change in this matter? The standard approach involved planners using their experience to estimate impacted days based on past projects. They might receive a PDF report from the Met Office containing historical data, but this often doesn’t take the last few years of data into account, which have been very different. They’ll be making decisions based on that data and their past experiences. In a meeting, they might discuss whether they are likely to win the bid based on the number of days allocated for weather impacts. They might then remove some of those days without a real justification to increase their chances of winning the work. This is actually a common theme in bidding in construction projects. 

Generally, the more overprepared you are, the more it inflates your bid and makes it less attractive to the client that generally only looks at the bottom line. So, I was going to ask you about how accounting for the weather would impact someone who is trying to be super competitive and move in their bid. It looks like you just said that they probably take it out. So, I guess the way that we then look at this, the way that we help and try to make you better prepared in a much more streamlined way is, first, you can create a project so you can select a location. We’ll automatically build a dataset for that location with up to 40 years of historical data for that location. We then run climate trend analysis on that dataset so that we can understand how it’s likely to change going forward. This will include various factors such as wind, rain, and temperature. 

You can then upload your plan, and we’ll analyse every single line of your plan and match this to a large risk matrix that we have, which tells us how different types of concrete are affected by temperature or how different cranes are affected by wind speeds. We then have a huge model, which processes all of this information, all the climate data, the weather data, and basically runs thousands of simulations on all your activities. This gives us a statistically accurate output of the likelihood of each of these activities to finish on time, but also gives you a distribution as to when might be a better time of year to start or when might be a better place for certain activities to happen. We might also suggest different methodologies that you could use. For example, using a different crane could reduce your risk by X. 

The first port of call isn’t just to stick all these days in your bid. Instead, we show you where the risk is the worst, and suggest ways to mitigate those risks. Once you’ve taken those mitigations, we’ll provide you with that data so you can then speak to your client as part of your bid. You can illustrate the risk that you were originally taking, the mitigations that you’ve implemented, and the reduction in risk that you’ve achieved. 

Traditionally, a client wouldn’t have had any information about any of this. However, our data is going to be directly related to specific activities and times of the year, providing them with the reasoning behind it. During the project delivery, we provide forecast information, up to two weeks of forecast data, and warnings about different methodologies, allowing them to plan for better weather windows. 

Through this exercise and the model we’ve built, we can also create parametric insurance products. We’re still developing this, but we’ll be launching it relatively soon. It allows us to spot all of the gaps that you wouldn’t have necessarily been able to spot yourself, where you’re not going to be covered by your contract or your traditional insurance. We can structure products that would automatically pay for losses or delay losses that might occur. 

We’re working with clients as well since many of them have government mandates for adaptation strategies and plans. We’ve seen that many clients are asking questions about climate change and resilience in their bids. Our tool is a direct answer for contractors to respond to those questions in a data-driven way. This is especially important when a project is planned for five years but ends up taking ten years, as the risk of weather and climate change is going to change significantly. 

Regarding the forecast accuracy, the data provider we use is ranked the most accurate. Of course, tomorrow’s forecast is more accurate than the day after tomorrow’s forecast. We’re trying to provide more certainty, although there’s never going to be a 100% accurate forecast six months out since weather is a chaotic system. We’re providing as much data as possible to offer certainty for the decisions that need to be made. We don’t have an exact number on the accuracy of the forecast data, but our goal is to offer the best information available to help with planning and risk management. 

Drosha, I’m interested in your journey so far with eHab, as we talk to many startups, and they all share different stories and tips for others in the construction tech space trying to grow a product. Your experience and insights could be valuable for those navigating the challenges of building and scaling a successful construction technology company. 

As the industry continues to evolve and recognise the importance of climate change and resilience, tools like eHab’s provide a data-driven approach to tackling these issues. By offering contractors and clients the ability to make informed decisions about project planning, risk management, and mitigation strategies, eHab is playing a significant role in the transformation of the construction sector. 

So, can you share with us some of the key lessons you’ve learned so far, and how many years has eHab been going up to this point? I guess we really started in 2019, and then 2020 was when we started our grant. Sure, so you’ve already got four years of some good hard slog. Yeah, hard lessons. And so, yeah, go for it. 

Well, I think the lesson that I really wish we had learned as early as possible was, at least for our business, it’s not going to be the same for every business. But getting a product that we would be happy to provide for free out there. So we’re launching our freemium product now. And so that’s a product that we’ll have. You know, you’ve used products where it’s like you get a certain amount of usage for free if you want to use the main product. For us, at least, it’s a really good way of getting more users using it, getting more feedback and creating that sort of feedback loop, which is so essential for when you’re in the early stages of product development. So I would have done that first rather than now we’re in year four because I think user feedback is clearly the most, and it’s not just user feedback on designs, but it’s user feedback of actually using it, which is so important. In 2019, we were doing lots of prototyping and showing people different things, and you know, even through the grant, it’s really hard to get people using your product. So that, for me, is the most important thing. 

Yeah, nice, good lesson. And I guess it kind of ties into like if you had to do it again, you would go straight for the freemium, or even would it be freemium? I don’t know, like MVP or something. 

Yeah, I think that is what I’d do is start with the simplest version possible. And it’s just starting with the simplest as well because we, so the first part of the product we built is the long-term planning model. So it’s a really powerful model, you know, it has to integrate with people’s plans. So it integrates with P6, integrates with MS Project. All of that is quite heavy technical stuff to do. And it’s also quite a complicated thing to sell and describe to people because you have to really speak to planners who really know what they’re talking about and have a really deep technical conversation. Whereas if you’re selling a part of your product which has a simpler sell like, “Hey, we can give you some weather data for free,” or “We can give you some weather forecast information with certain warnings for free,” it’s much simpler for someone to say, “Oh, yeah, well, that’s quite easy.” It’s a very low lift reason for someone to say yes to something. So it’s not just giving something away for free, but I think it’s giving something away for free that’s so quick and simple for someone to understand that you don’t even have to sell it; it can be sold by someone just sharing a post on LinkedIn. That would be the other lesson. 

Yeah, sure. Okay, cool. Nice. Every business, every tech business has to adjust and adapt to new technologies and customers’ needs. So speaking of that, what are the future plans for eHab for now, and what’s the ultimate product that you would like to create? 

Ultimately, we know that the entire global construction industry is one, if not the most exposed industries to climate change, wherever you are on planet Earth. We want our tool to be instantly and readily available to any construction project anywhere, which it already is You can already create a project. We’ve got a project in Antarctica, we’ve got a project in the Brazilian rainforest. The next part of it is being useful and usable through every single stage of the project lifecycle. Right now, we focus really at the planning phase, we’re building more tools for the construction phase. We’re building out our parametric insurance product. We still have a smart contract product which is being developed, which helps to manage some of the contractual arrangements between parties. We see that the tool could be useful even once the asset is operational. So we’ve spoken to people who manage roads and railways, and there’s obviously weather implications there. 

So the ultimate product that we would like to create is one that helps everyone involved in building and managing our assets. That includes energy assets, transport assets, ports, roads, airports, and offshore wind turbines. We want it to help them manage risk in real-time, as well as being able to project and model risk into the future around climate and weather. We want it to help manage the contractual relationships between all of the parties who have to work on those assets and ultimately protect themselves against extreme weather events through that parametric insurance product. Ultimately, those extreme events are going to get more extreme, and so resilience is really going to mean how quickly can we get back on our feet after those events have occurred. 

You can already create a project. We’ve got a project in Antarctica, we’ve got a project in the Brazilian rainforest. The next part of it is being useful and usable through every single stage of the project lifecycle. Right now, we focus really at the planning phase, we’re building more tools for the construction phase. We’re building out our parametric insurance product. We still have a smart contract product which is being developed, which helps to manage some of the contractual arrangements between parties. We see that the tool could be useful even once the asset is operational. So we’ve spoken to people who manage roads and railways, and there’s obviously weather implications there. 

So the ultimate product that we would like to create is one that helps everyone involved in building and managing our assets. That includes energy assets, transport assets, ports, roads, airports, and offshore wind turbines. We want it to help them manage risk in real-time, as well as being able to project and model risk into the future around climate and weather. We want it to help manage the contractual relationships between all of the parties who have to work on those assets and ultimately protect themselves against extreme weather events through that parametric insurance product. Ultimately, those extreme events are going to get more extreme, and so resilience is really going to mean how quickly can we get back on our feet after those events have occurred. 

You said you’d like the product to be implemented in every project. What sort of projects do you mean, like huge infrastructure projects or smaller residential projects, commercial? What kind of projects are we talking about? Yeah, I really think every project can benefit from more data. The price point that we’ve created for eHab is designed to be very, very, very attainable for even the smallest projects. I was speaking with a potential client the other day, and they do lots of small bits of maintenance and roadworks. So their projects are running for a couple of weeks or even a week or even a couple of days, right? We’re still designing features that would be useful at that phase, but even then, creating a project, getting a bunch of data, getting an understanding of the likelihood of your works being impacted is still beneficial. And if that was basically free or very cheap to do, then perhaps you would gain value from that. Yeah, agreed. 

One of the other things that you run as well is the Climate Venture Collective. So can you tell us a little bit more about that? Also, in 2020, there was obviously a pandemic that meant that we were all locked in our houses. And I’d always really wanted to start a community around climate businesses because, for me, climate change is the most important thing we should all be focusing on. And I think that business has a really interesting role to play. So we actually started the Climate Venture Collective at the beginning of 2020, basically as a community where we would get together in London and run ideation workshops to try to help people come up with ideas for businesses. And we actually ran our first in-person workshop in, I think it was the end of March, just before everything went into lockdown. 

I was going to say, I hope you were abiding by social distancing rules. Seems like it was before then anyway. At the time, we were. But eventually, we then had to go online. And I think obviously everyone was maybe a bit worried, a bit bored. And so we had so many people attending our online events that we eventually did weekly online events. We were having 15, 20 people attending. We were using Miro, doing lots of ideation stuff. We actually started about 10 different projects, some of which have gone on to be businesses now. So there’s a really interesting business which uses food waste to make really tasty snacks. So if you’re turning just bits and odds and ends of food waste into fermented kimchi, which is a really cool business. It makes construction sound so boring. Yeah, not quite as fun and tasty as a bit of kimchi with some ramen. I’m in the wrong business. Cool. 

Josh, so I wanted to touch on something you said earlier. So contractual agreements and smart contract products. I guess you’re solving some issues using blockchain technologies within your business. 

Can you explain how you do it and how you see blockchain technologies impacting the construction industry, if at all, and what would be the use cases for them? So I think the problem in construction around contracts is that agreements have been made without people truly recognising the implications of those agreements. I think that’s the fundamental problem because, in the example of weather, in the example of the smart contract product that we built, you’ll have someone agreeing to a one in 10-year threshold, which is the NEC’s definition of an extreme weather event. And so you’ll have a data set which says, which you get from the Met Office, if there is more rain than would happen once in every 10 years, so let’s just say that’s 150mm in a month, then that’s a compensation event. But it won’t go into detail as to exactly how you administer, does that mean the day that it goes over, then every day from then should be the compensation event or is it the 10% of that entire month’s number of days, there are lots of different ways you can interpret it. 

What then happens is you get to that one in 10, let’s say you’re over 150mm, and of course, the contractor is going to probably interpret it in the way that’s most favourable to them. The client is going to interpret it in the way that’s most favourable to them. Those things aren’t going to be aligned. You get this disconnect where the contract is £500,000 and the client’s only willing to pay £50,000, let’s say. That’s obviously a massive simplification. In lots of instances, we know that people might think, if the claim is too small, they won’t even bother trying. If it’s a few thousand pounds, they’re not going to bother because, well, it’s more effort to try and win it than the money that we’re going to win back. That’s not what the point of the contract is. The point of the contract in that instance is to share the risk in a fair way. 

The purpose of the smart contract in the tool that we built was to automate that entire process and create very clear rules that were written in a smart contract, which were predefined so that when the event happens, the smart contract just operates it. So the way that it works is the model that we built, that effectively provides the price and the levels at which payments would be made. So rather than saying, undefined, if it hits one in 10, then you can create the payout and try to create a payout, create a claim, we’ll just say, if there is a break in the contract, that’s a compensation event. Depending on the time of year that that happens, then based on the activities that were occurring, that’s £50,000 worth of activity. Because it was breached by X%, then you get X% of the amount of activity that occurred. So let’s say that’s £7,000. And that’s it. It’s based on a mathematical model. It’s based on the activities that were occurring. The smart contract just pays it. Now, is that more accurate? True than what actually happened. It’s hard to say whether £7,000 exactly covers the loss that was incurred. However, there’s no effort in doing it. There’s no argument. It’s just purely here’s the £7,000. And so I personally feel like although each individual case, you might find that the accuracy of the model isn’t going to be 100% of the time, the law of averages will say, overall, of the projects that you’re running, if every single project has a smart contract, well, it’s going to work out as the most fair use of resources and time in the long run. 

Now, as for other parts of how smart contracts can help in construction, I think there are really loads and loads of interesting use cases. Provenance is obviously a really good one. Knowing where your steel has come from, being able to prove that maybe that steel was zero carbon. For example, obviously, there are a lot of things around mitigating climate change now. Being able to prove that the materials you’ve used are the right ones is one aspect. 

I think insurance is another interesting one. Again, it’s all around data provenance and being able to prove the data. And that’s where I think for us, at least, trying to implement a solution in construction, we’ve fallen flat in that data still is, you know, data is the new gold, whatever, but it’s not really consistently applied across construction. 

Every construction company processes data in a different way. Few of them are processing it in a really meaningful way. And so, I don’t think blockchain is going to really work in construction until you have data being used in a very meaningful manner. Every bit of data that you collect needs to be tagged, sorted, and searchable. Right now, it’s not. It’s in spreadsheets, and if it is put into a database, it might not even be in the right columns because everyone’s putting it in different columns. It becomes very hard to create an automated product if the dataset you’re using is not great. 

Just before we move on to the off-topic section, Martin, did you want to talk about blockchain? You are much more in the know about that kind of stuff than me, so I’m not going to try and ask a clever question. No, that was perfectly explained, really, blockchain application within the smart contracts, because that’s blockchain, to my understanding, Josh, is it? Yeah. Yeah, I’m using it interchangeably, but yeah, smart contracts are code that run on blockchain. 

Just on that subject then, do you find, I think you touched upon it a little bit really about all the data and how hard it is to implement in construction, but in terms of the people actually using this technology as well, when you mention the word “smart contract”, do they freeze? They’re like, “oh my God, this is way too advanced”. It’s a theme that comes up quite a bit on the podcast. It’s like, you can’t go in small steps? I don’t know if it is the technology that’s scaring people or whether it’s the implication of it. 

I agree. Just thinking about that weather example, let’s say we could prove that it was the fairest way to do it, and it would save everyone time and money because they don’t have to process the claim. Think about the change that it’s actually making. It’s removing power and decision-making power and the ability to potentially win more money from both sides. Because the contractor could always potentially make a better claim, and the client could always potentially pay less money through their claim. And so when speaking to both parties, both parties have to agree, right? It’s hard to get that agreement because the position that both parties are in right now is, well, our clients have quite a lot of power in that they can, I have to be careful what I say here, but they can be relatively smart in the way that they administer those claims, as can the contractors. And so until we get to this agreement that actually, yes, using a model and using smart contracts can genuinely provide benefit to both, and explaining that in a clear and concise way, then I think both parties will be afraid of letting go of that power, if that makes sense. 

Yeah, like the issue I find with this, because it’s completely zero or one. So it happens or it doesn’t happen. And if it happens, that’s the amount, that’s the claim, this needs to be paid. And it’s kind of automatic. In life, things are usually not zero or one, and they are not black and white. But if there is a claim based on an event, there is a whole background and set of circumstances around the particular site or between the contractor and the client, which might have an impact on this particular item X, but with the view of the item Y, there is some mutual agreement that, okay, the contractor will not get paid for this because of other reasons. So it just becomes different. The construction is not like that, I feel like. Yeah, not black and white. 

Well, and I guess the reality is , Martin, that a smart contract isn’t trying to say that you can’t have those differences in opinion around it. It just means you have to agree on it upfront. So let’s say you had an itemised list of all the things that you could pay for, and all you have to do is agree which ones are relevant and which ones are not. Because that’s what we’re doing with our parametric insurance. We have the model, and the model spits out as accurate a set of data about the potential impact of weather as possible. And then you either agree to the payout that could come from that, or you don’t. If you do, well, then you get the payout. Yeah, that makes sense. 

So, Josh, obviously, any CEO of a company is always a very busy person, and you’ve also got the Climate Venture Collective as well. So what is a day in the life of Josh Graham like? I try to get up as early as possible, which at the moment, unfortunately, is very dark. So it’s hard to get up sometimes. And I try to learn a bit of Spanish in the morning. Hola. Hola. And then I look after my dog, going for a walk in the morning to make sure she’s tired throughout the day, so she’s not always pestering me. My girlfriend and I have breakfast, and then work commences. I’ll do Ehab stuff throughout the day, usually until six or seven PM. And then I’ll eat a bit of food and probably do a bit of other side project stuff. So that might be Climate Venture Collective or some charity work. In the evenings, I’ll generally do a bit of that and then go to sleep. Just rinse and repeat, basically. 

The most important thing: If you had an unlimited budget, what would you use it for? With an unlimited budget, I would probably pay for every single person on planet Earth to have a sustainable house, which is off-grid. So, fully equipped with solar panels, battery, ground source heat pumps, moving from the pretty terrible fossil fuel energy system we have right now to something completely decentralised. I like it. It sounds good. You’d save the planet, then. 

One last quick-fire question from me: If there was one book that had the biggest impact on where you are now, can you name one? Yeah, it’s the one that made me decide to become an entrepreneur. It’s “Bold” by Peter Diamandis. It explains how if you’re going to do something, do a moonshot. Don’t just do a half measure. Do the boldest thing that you think you can do. It’s a very inspiring project, talking about lots of different examples of when people just threw caution to the wind and did the most exciting thing they could. So I recommend that book to anyone. 

Nice. I like it. I’ve not heard of that one before. I’ll check it out. 

So, Josh, if people want to know more about you, where can they find you? They can find Ehab at If you want to check out Ehab, it’s, and you can find all the information on our website. You can contact me via there. You can create a free account on Ehab via there as well. So, I’m looking forward to hearing from some of your listeners. If you have any questions about smart contracts or weather risk, then don’t hesitate to reach out. And you are also available on LinkedIn, as I reached out to you. So that’s definitely a way to get in touch with you, yes? Definitely. 

Okay, Josh, well, thank you very much for your time. Thank you so much, guys. It was a pleasure speaking to you. 

Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of the Bricks and Bytes Podcast. If you are enjoying the show, please feel free to rate, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. We really appreciate it, and we’ll catch you in the next episode. 

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