On today’s show, we have Sanka Deep. Sanka is the founder and product lead for Lattice, which is a construction supply chain visibility platform. In this episode, we talk about supply chain issues, implementation of construction technology, good and bad software, and new business models. If you’re enjoying our podcast, please check us out on Spotify, Apple or wherever you listen to your podcast. And if you enjoyed, please leave us a review. This helps us to get more amazing guests to give you guys the best and most informative content on technology in the build world. Before we dive in, shout out to our sponsor Beta. If you want to connect with some of the biggest players in the construction tech world, including tier one building contractors, some of the biggest construction tech companies, investors and advisors, check them out by visiting www.the-beta.com, and this is www.the-beta.com. You are listening to Bricks and Bikes podcast, where we take you on a journey in construction, technology, and business. All right, let’s get this episode started. 

Hey, Sankar, it looks like you have some experience in both the UK and India tech scene. What’s the difference and similarities between the two? First of all, thank you for having me here. You’re welcome. I think in both these countries, there’s one similarity – they are there to solve problems for the customers. But what’s uniquely different is the scale. India is massive. We have a massive population. Problems are very different from the ones we have here. So that’s the only difference I see. But in terms of how the Indian ecosystem and tech system have evolved over the last 10 years, it has been crazy. Back then, I think in 2012 when I started my journey, it was more about replicating what was working in the West and putting it into our business model and then Indianising it to scale. But now this has changed. There are real innovations coming in. 

Are these innovations used in the Indian market or are they exported abroad? Yeah, they used to be this only, but now they are building it for the local market, then exporting it to the world. So it was previously the other way around, but we have clearly evolved now. And here in the UK, I think there’s a real, real need for innovation. You know, when you go to someone, customers, investors, or even talking to guys like you, like speaking, it’s always about talking about how you’re better than the competition, what innovativeness you are bringing in. From day one, you have to be innovative to stand out. Whereas, yeah, that’s the basic difference, I think it’s there. 

Other people have other, not demographic, but like people’s tastes and needs similar, because I honestly find, as a British person myself, that Indian and British people are quite actually quite similar. Curry, yes. Mine does not agree. So does that mean that? The history between these two? No, let’s not bore everyone with that. But like, does that mean that if it works in one place, i.e. India, it’s going to work in the UK? Or is there like a teething issue when something perhaps comes from India over to the UK? Yeah, absolutely. I wouldn’t say taste, but the whole complexity of both countries are different. You know, our mindset is to get the best possible product for as cheap as possible. It’s more like giving more value; we’re ready to pay more money for that. So that’s there. And I like it. Yeah. And at the same time, in India, it’s also about doing something in a more frugal way. So making it as cost-effective as possible. But in the West, they’re like, “Okay, let’s throw some money in, and then let’s solve the problem.” So that’s the two clear differentiations. But again, if you’re launching a product in the UK, it has its own nature and, you know, needs, and yeah, the same goes with the further west you go as well. The more money they throw in, when you go over to the US, it’s just like, “Here’s a cheque. Make sure you don’t ask for less than ten.” 

Cool, and you also did a TED Talk, right, on the future of work for startup founders? Thank God you asked for this. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yes, it was quite an experience out there, and I think a lot has been spoken about how the work dynamics of employees will change with, you know, everything becoming virtual. 

In my TED Talk, I discussed the future of work for startup founders, focusing on how the changing landscape of the workforce will impact entrepreneurs as well. With the rise of remote work, we see a shift in the way people collaborate, communicate and build relationships. This has a significant effect on how startup founders manage their teams, build company culture, and maintain a competitive edge. 

In this new era, startup founders need to adapt to these changes and embrace the opportunities that come with them. They need to learn how to manage remote teams effectively, build trust in a virtual environment, and foster a sense of belonging among their employees, despite the physical distance. 

But one of the biggest questions which was unanswered was how the founders are going to deal with the situation where, you know, you’re not sitting together. I remember my previous startup where I used to be with my co-founder. It was like a marriage. I used to spend around 15, 16 hours with him talking about the product, sitting together in a room. Then, COVID happens, you’re both apart. And in this case, with Lattice, it’s an international separation. One is sitting in Bangalore and one is here. So yeah, and what I thought was communication is the first key. And I think more and more tools will come now to make sure that not only just employees, but founders can also collaborate. Like, there’s Pitch.com, all these things to help you virtually communicate with your founders. But yeah, it was a nice talk to give, basically, an understanding. The problem with TED Talks is you just don’t give your opinion, but at the end of it, you have to give an actionable way how you can achieve that. So that’s something you have to really think about and give your personal experience as well. 

Okay, so did you have any insights? Yeah, I think two things. It might not look like a buzzword, but back to the basics: communication and culture. So these are the two things which can bind any company together, and the rest, everything follows. Communication improves the product, and understanding your culture is basically what you are like serving your customers. Yeah. Nice. Excellent. 

Cool. Going to Lattice, so that’s your software. And so it came in briefly in two sentences, Lattice too. Yeah, so Lattice is a supply chain management platform for construction. What we do is we help project teams to gather material status and other sorts of reports easily from their suppliers rather than using email chains or spreadsheets. 

Okay, so that was my prelude to the next question. So, because that’s something that I’m very passionate about, but what interests me is there’s so much software, this type of software in the industry, and to onboard someone to use new software, it takes a lot of resources, costs, time, and dedication. So, how do you see the implementation of new software in construction technology broadly? What are your thoughts on this? 

Great question. I’ll go back to your podcast, which is from Vin. Firstly, he said selling is difficult. Selling is difficult, but implementing is very, very difficult. So, I think from his output, I’ll take some doughnuts for the team. Yeah. But for us, what we have seen, to be honest, is implementation is hard. But if you work with the right team and you have a good plan to strategise on, it’s a good start. Like for us, what’s happening is when you take them away from, you know, you shouldn’t disrupt them. Construction people are very, very busy. They have so much work on their hands. And if you’re coming there disrupting it, it just puts them off. But the thing is that you have never achieved anything without disrupting. So it has to be a very smart disruption. That’s what we are doing. We make sure that the workflow is quite similar to what they’re used to. Like if they’re used to having an Excel sheet, we’ll be creating something like Excel sheets on steroids, something like that. So, it makes it not an alien environment, but at the same time, they know how it’s done, but you get better out of your data, to be honest. Yeah, and just putting Lattice to one side for a sec, we can come back to that. 

But in general, in the construction tech world, and maybe you can share some experiences from Lattice or from people you hang around with, or even experiences from other industries that you bring across. So, companies that are trying to implement construction tech solutions, some of the key points we’ve noted down here for discussion would be costs. So obviously, there’s the cost of the software, and then there’s also what I tend to see as a cost of someone to run that software as well. So, like you take a project management system, you can’t just rely on the people that you’re already paying salaries to run that. You probably need to bring an administrator or similar in to come and manage that for your company. So, do you have any thoughts on that? 

The latest I’ve worked with is one company, my friend’s working in construction, not in supply chain, but into more about design stage implementation. So, I think it was not with the construction people in general, but it was with the architects and the builder. So it was the same scenario where the cost involved was okay. But I think again, to run the software, they had to speak to at least three or four different people at four different times, which is again, because everyone has their own way of doing it. So to be honest, I don’t have a clear answer. But the day I take my company a little further, I’ll sort of give you my two cents about it. Yeah. But that’s really there. Yeah. 

Yeah, I almost think that it could be as important as one of the other buzzwords, like product-market fit or go-to-market. Your implementation strategy has to be spot on. And also the importance of integrating it into existing workflows. I think you touched upon it there, where you make sure that you guys do it. But do you have any other thoughts on other companies that might be doing this? 

Yeah, I think now interoperability has been a big topic in construction for a very long time. So, every standalone product or any solution cannot just service only one single thing. They have to be integrated across all the channels so that your project manager has a total view of what’s happening. 

And finally, what do companies do when they implement software and then they have adapted all their workflows, they’ve paid for it, they hired someone to manage it for them, and then they realise it’s mediocre? It doesn’t live up to the expectation. Yeah, I cannot do that because that’s exactly the process we went through. We introduced one of the software in our business probably last August, and we just wanted it. We paid like a thousand pounds to get the training and then monthly payments, obviously, as well. And it turns out that it solved probably 20, 30% of what I would like it to solve, but it doesn’t solve the business case. So, it’s very broad software for maybe plumbers, electricians, but it doesn’t touch on my needs, my business, or my industry needs. 

So how can companies, or people, look into a universal way to decide, okay, that’s how I should go about choosing my software? I think I can give it from my own experience. I think that’s the best way to answer any difficult question. For us, what we have seen is that it’s just not enough to sell the product, have it accepted, provide training, and then leave the client alone. It doesn’t work that way. It’s about showing up every day, checking how we can add value. It might be that at one stage, the client feels it’s working for them, but they need more. It’s about being there and asking, “Can we do more for you?” Sometimes, people have unrealistic demands; they want software to do everything. But it’s about creating a dialogue and explaining what can be achieved and what can’t. One of the key things we do at Lattice is, at the very start of the project, we identify the key outcomes that the client can get from our application, and we try to achieve them. It’s a famous saying, “Under-promise, over-deliver.” I think that’s the key. Always. 

Okay, Sanka, so tell us a bit more about Lattice in detail. What is the core problem that you guys are solving? 

Lattice addresses supply chain communication, which is a significant problem for construction project managers. Typically, on a construction site, you have at least 10 to 15 different suppliers, each with their own nuances and logistics, and everything is fragmented. What binds it all together for project teams are Excel sheets, spreadsheets, and email chains. We said, “No, this is not the way to do it,” and that’s where we came in. The lack of visibility for project teams is a problem; they don’t have an overview of what’s happening with suppliers A, B, C, and D, or how the entire lifecycle of the product is documented. There are many products in the market that offer the best procurement software, but what happens after that is important. It’s about tracking the product from when it leaves the supplier to when it’s installed on a construction site. That’s where the data is, and it gives you insight into how good your next project will be as well. 

Why is that important? One of the big questions that remain unanswered is, “Where is my product? Who has delivered it, and when is it going to arrive?” Compare it with Amazon; you have a view of when you’ve placed the order, when it’s arriving, or if you’ve missed it. But for project team leaders, they only know it’s been ordered or received and is ready to install. Imagine a scenario where you have all the information from procurement to the material arriving at the local depot, being installed, and quality checked, all at the tap of a button. What we do differently is we push this data into a digital twin via Autodesk. So, for all your buildings, whether it’s windows or precast concrete structures, you can visualise it and see what has been delivered on-site, what has been installed, and any issues that may have arisen. 

Today, most applications don’t offer this level of visibility because, as mentioned, most solutions stop at procurement. Having full visibility can also help with payments for materials, as contractors often don’t get paid until 60, 90 days, or even longer. UK law regarding ownership of materials can be complex, so our solution could potentially help with that as well. 

You asked if we use blockchain to track all this information. That’s an interesting question, Martin, but we haven’t gone down that route yet. However, we are intrigued to see how it evolves. There is a company in the US, DigiBuild, which you mentioned from your podcast, that is implementing blockchain in the supply chain. In this industry, there is often more than one person or company working on the same thing. It is fascinating, and it would be good to share innovation between companies, if possible, to help the industry as a whole. Cool. Martin, do you want to discuss your idea of a business model as a service? Well, we can touch on this. Yes, sure. So I think we had a similar conversation with Owen a few months ago and actually today as well. About software solving very broad problems for a very broad audience. But what they are not solving, in my view, is problems for a particular type of business. So you can call it a business model as a service. So you provide a business model as a software, and it taps into all the needs of the business. You can basically purchase the software, which is your, if you create an acronym, M-A-A-S, B-MAS, B-MAS, B-MAS. And once you have it, in theory, you can have all of the secret sauce of the business to run it. And you just apply your specialist and professional knowledge to obviously solve the client’s problems.  

So I just wanted to find out what’s your take on this kind of philosophical, actually, question even, because I don’t think it exists actually. It’s just something I sometimes think about. Interesting. Especially I think if you think about it in terms of construction, there are so many stakeholders, isn’t it? From architects, engineers, to bidders and everything. It’s quite interesting. My take would be that one solution doesn’t solve for everyone. Martin is a tough nut to crack. I think he wants everything to be done from one step. Martin wants to push a button and get paid. Exactly that. Thank you. But my clear answer will be, I think every architect has their different needs, different ways of communicating, the same with the engineers, especially structural and all. But one thing that can solve all of them, I think it’s BIM model, to be honest. At some point, BIM will have all the information which is required for all the stakeholders. So I think that’s one of the things. So BIM mass can be BIM mass. Now you’re getting close to Christmas. I don’t know if you agree with this or you might have. Maybe. I’d be completely honest with you. Like I’m not familiar with BIM because I’ve never used it. And I don’t know what’s happening with the industry. In fact, we never really even spoke to anyone Martin on a tech podcast about BIM. Have we? Which is we will have in the next few weeks, someone who runs. I can’t remember the name, but. actually digital twins and they do surveys and they also have podcasts about this kind of stuff. So in the US. Yeah, so I don’t know the solution.  

But what I would say is that there’s lots of software out there for reasons because they all do something very well. One will do one thing very well, another will do another thing very well, or slightly better than the other one that does it. So it’s like you have to have 10 subscriptions to try and manage your Yeah, that stuff, right? Because when you think about the outgoings created by these 10 subscriptions, it becomes a hefty bill every month, yes? 100%. And one of the key frustrations when you speak to people that own construction companies is they don’t want like 10, 15 logins just to manage a project, right? They want one place where they can go, but I’m afraid, and I’m going to say, I don’t think that exists. And I’m not sure it ever will exist. Interoperability. That was in between. A lot of topic, a lot of discussion about that. I don’t know how much we achieved as an industry, but I think each application standalone should speak to each other. You know, it should be a great example of how it doesn’t work. And it has not been cracked in general. In theory, it works very well and perfectly. But even like taking the IFC models to Tekla from Tekla to Revit, this kind of stuff, which is the same type of file, it just doesn’t work well because it just doesn’t. It was invented, I don’t know, about 10 years ago. And there is a feeling that these large software providers, they created huge behemoths and they are just keeping them as they are. And there’s little innovation in this area. BIM sounds great and sounds innovative, but I don’t feel like it is perfect. Yeah, but maybe I’m too idealistic about this. No, you’re not wrong in that. But I think as an industry, we are going somewhere. The point that we all are sitting together and discussing this means there is something. Yeah, that’s a good point. Going, yeah, I think we will be there very soon. But yeah, you’re right. There has to be some system where each one of them has at least 10% of the project need done properly. I mean, even if it’s architects, engineers or something, a software should be there. It does one-third of it properly so that the rest you can pay and get it done. Yeah. But what? Yeah.  What’s happening according to Martin is right, that all the others is like 10% from here, 10% from this software, another, another, another. It just builds up into an even more organised chaos. Yep. And your password manager gets even bigger. That’s a frustration I have. Anyway, and I think that actually leads us nicely into our next point. Shankar, you have experience obviously in other industries like FinTech. Is that right? Yes. Is there anything we could learn from FinTech in the construction industry that you’re applying or that you have applied to your journey with Lattice so far? To have better profits. Oh, yes. I think there is a great way of the two worlds coming together. 

I think FinTech and construction tech are moving closer. I think one of the greatest examples is how you pay your suppliers. That has always been a question for every construction house. We delay payments and other sorts of things. I think that has to be digitised. And from the suppliers and also how you ask them for payments, it’s not the same as asking for a cheque or contract sending them. It’s making that easier for materials also. Yeah. I mean, if it’s easy to do the rest of it, construction has been there forever, hasn’t it? So, and it’s one of the biggest industries in the world. Yeah. And billions and billions of money flow every day. And I think FinTech has a big part to do with it. And to answer your question, yes, it’s something we are working on is once the work is done.  

How can we accelerate the process of getting the money from the contractors or something like that? So we are working on it. But yeah, my FinTech experience was quite unique. It was short-lived, but it was quite unique. So we were creating a platform for first-time homebuyers both in India and, I guess, the UK as well, where we used data from banking, your open banking, getting all the information about your spending and all, giving you the right amount, how much you need to save to say where you live, taking all the factors into account where you live, where you want to live, how much you’re earning, and also having the data about your future career growth, like how you work at this moment, and giving a cumulative answer. Say how much you must save in a month or something like that. It was short-lived because FinTech is good but very difficult to build. It’s a lot of money. You can’t bootstrap a FinTech company. It’s crazy. Regulations. Yeah, you need to be a lawyer. Yeah, you need to be a big player or backed by big players straight away. Yes, just to get there, right. And yeah, it was short-lived. But we did manage to sell the backend stack to a leading company in the US. It wasn’t as bad as this. This actually brings me to the point that, based on this example, it’s very difficult to innovate in fintech unless you are very well backed by bigger pockets. In construction, you actually don’t need to have as long as it’s software. If it’s hardware, robotics, or any tangible things happening on site, it’s obviously much larger money, but in terms of software and construction, there’s so much opportunity at a relatively low cost, right? Because you can play with small projects. You can, you know, as long as you are able to convince an architect, engineer or contractor, it’s much easier to do so. You can’t do it with a bank in the financial technology industry, right? Why not? You’re not going to say to someone, can you deposit me some money into the bank of Martin and let me test something? That’s called fraud, always. Yeah, now it’s a good insight. Yeah, but I think you’re right as well. Just to elaborate on this, one of the greatest things in construction is you can also, you don’t have to really target the big general contractors to prove your thing. You can go to smaller contractors, build software for them also. And I think there are still a lot of things. I think one of your podcasts, I heard somebody say that there are many, many small solutions coming in construction every year now.  

So now that construction is getting a lot of the VC money or attention from others, I think there will be a lot of software coming in, solving different problems. But then it goes to Martin’s questions about BIM, whether we can integrate it all together. Guys, one more question actually.  

So, Sanka, tell us, how can we help founders prevent them from creating bad software, which is basically something that has already been done, which is similar to what’s on the market? And apart from just changing a name and having a nice website, it doesn’t bring much value. That’s a great question. I ask this every day to myself. Yes, good question to be asking, to be fair, you’re building a software company in construction. I mean, it goes back to the basics for me. One of the main reasons is understanding the customer and having your own stamp on the solution to the problem you’re solving. I mean, like with our clients whom we work with, every day we go back and say, how can we do better for them? And I don’t just want to say better in a buzzword sense, but realistically, how can we not only save costs for them but how can we build a better feature at a much lower price ourselves? I mean, in India, there’s a word called “Jugaad”, which means a very frugal way of finding solutions to different problems. And I think we do Jugaad every day, trying to find a way… To answer your question, to be honest, it’s being aligned with your customer, what they need, checking back and seeing how you can do things better for them.  

Are they achieving the goals which are there? And in terms of bad software, I don’t think there’s anything called bad software. It’s just called the wrong software, wrong timing. I think, and the best thing about software is, you can change it anytime. It’s just a line of code. So once you understand your customer needs, bad software, ugly looking software can be made good in just a day. But what feeds into the system is what your customer needs, how you can serve them better, to be honest. And one more thing, everyone misses this, is service. At the end of the day, you’re giving a service, give them the best customer support system. That’s the core proposition for many Indian startups today. If you go to them, they’ll just hook on to you, make sure that you never leave the platform. Yeah, not by irritating you, but just making sure they are providing you the best service, and we learn as software also, as I said, it’ll develop itself. So if I can plug one more actually, so you, as a founder and also working previously with other founders of tech companies, what’s the secret sauce? Is it a pragmatic step-by-step approach or is it like a big vision and billion-pound business? I hope I exit a billion-pound company. But there is no secret sauce. I think for me, it has always been to go there, test the market as fast as possible. You see what’s working, what’s not. If it’s working, why is it working? Sign up customers as soon as possible, figure it out as soon as possible before taking some VC money in because once you have some money in from investors, they will have a say on everything. You lose the independence. So until you’re ready to scale or boom, don’t take VC money. And once you’re taking it, take it at the right time when you can explode, basically. You know, you can go to XYZ customers and say, we have done this, we have done that. 

Okay boss, can we take it to the next level? So, I think that’s where there’s no secret sauce. Once you become a founder, I think the first thing you know is 90% of the time you will fail, but you’re just hoping that 10% you will succeed. And I think we get up every day to make that 10% count, to be honest. Agreed. Very nice. I like it. OK, let’s go. Let’s do some off-topic questions. So Shankar, we don’t put these in the questions before. We’d like to hear the creative side of it. Catch you off guard. Not quite, but maybe. So, what does a day-to-day look like in the life of Shankar? I wake up at seven o’clock, take the dogs out. What dogs do you have? Sit down. I have a golden retriever and a Labrador. Oh, lovely. Very nice. They came all the way from India with me. Wow, really? They enjoy the UK weather. I take them out for a walk. And I think from nine o’clock to three o’clock, it’s constant, you know, reaching out to people. And I think for me, LinkedIn is my poison. I think I’ve stopped using Instagram, Facebook and all that. I’m researching and sometimes doing these podcasts like this, which gives you some energy to do that. I sleep very late. So, at one o’clock or two o’clock, I’ll be still replying to emails. Wow. Yeah, we could run a 24-7 business if you’re interested. In the UK. 

Is there any book that you can recommend on any topic? Yeah, I think recently one book I read was from Phil Knight, Shoe Dog. It took a long time for me to get hold of that book, as like, I’m going to read it, I’m going to read it like this. But an old classic for me is Losing My Virginity by Richard Branson. Always the best book. I think he wrote his heart out on this book, just how an entrepreneur should be. It’s a great book, if you guys… Actually, I haven’t read this one. I think I’ve read Yes or Something by him, but not this one. So, you have to check this out. 

What is your number one productivity hack? Not Red Bull. No, what? Red Bull? Not Red Bull. And for me, it’s writing down everything on paper. Again, I think it’s back to basics for me, I think. People have all these apps and all that, but what I have is 30 to 40-minute slots of my time, and I don’t do it on a screen. I put it on my pen and paper sheet, and I go on this. And another thing is, if I’m writing an email or something to someone, I take at least 30 minutes to research on things and do it. So, I have slots to do this for everything. So, if I have to say unwind and just listen to music, it’s that 30 minutes and yeah, and I don’t work here at that time. So it’s just that and then take a break of 10, 15 minutes. And for me, those 10, 15 minutes are playing with my dog. So yeah, it’s nice. That’s interesting. So, like my problem with that would be, okay, I can slot my life into these slots. But what are the priorities? What should I put in these slots? Because that’s kind of something I sometimes would struggle with. Okay, I have so many things to do. 

And what should I put in my time in the slot? I don’t think you’ll ever get it right because one week something else will be a priority over another. But as long as you have the time in there in some capacity, you can always switch it around, is what I say. But you should also know your priorities as well, right? Is what I would say. Like, is it family? Is it work? Is it the gym? You kind of know thereabouts what you should be doing. That’s my opinion. Yeah. Martin, when do you feel you’re the most productive? Mornings or nights? That’s a funny thing because most of it is morning because I don’t have any phone calls. I can focus. No one has disrupted my day yet or it’s in the evening when no one is again disrupting my day anymore. So like 7 p.m. onwards. 

You know about the 20-80% rule, isn’t it? Like, 20% of the tasks take up 80% of your time. So, narrowing down those important ones may actually solve a lot of the problem. I’m super productive at night. So, I’m up just doing, making sure I have everything prepared for the next day. But I haven’t got it right, to be honest. Yeah, no, I would say that it’s like, it’s a forever moving target. Like, you never, there’s never going to be one system you adopt and implement. And it works for a year like it might work for two weeks. And then something changes. And you have to change in your life again. It’s about keeping on top of it. 

I started reading one more book called The Art of Thinking Clearly. It’s not bad. Who’s the writer? By Rolf Dobelli. Okay. That is also a quite remarkable book. I forgot all of a sudden. I’m actually reading it halfway through. I was like, okay. Oh, nice. What book do you let me ask a question in your own podcast? What book do you recommend? 

Okay, so the last guest asked this question. And I don’t want to give the same answer. So, one that I am reading now is about becoming a better parent. Parenting books. To be fair, I have a book down here called Child Psychology and Development for Dummies. So, if anyone wants to read that, then go for it. But I was going to say that a business one would be To Sell Is Human by Daniel Pink, I think is. Daniel Pink. Yeah, it’s about sales, influence and persuasion; it’s interesting. I don’t think I have a great business book that I can recommend right now. A few months back, I read a book by Ben Horowitz, which was The Hard Thing About Hard Things. And that was very good because it went through his journey as a founder. No, not as a founder, but as someone who was part of a startup. That was very nice. But I’m recently exploring, I mean, very interested in finance and I’m reading about that now. Well, I mentioned this in the last podcast as well. So, no, you’ve got to do another one. Wedding planning. There you go. Wedding Planning for Dummies. The first thing is, if you’re a dummy, you shouldn’t be getting married. Or do dummies get married? 

And just to put you off guard, what are your thoughts on bricks and bytes? Alright guys, see you next week. I really liked Andreas. He’s such a cool guy. Yeah. But everyone we have on is, I know this is a cop-out, but everyone we do research on and we try to get the best people on here. So, everyone always has a great story to tell and shares some really good knowledge. And if someone would like to weave all that knowledge together into some form of eBook or something, I don’t know, I’m sure it would be valuable to people in construction tech. My favourite was probably an in-person interview that we did a few months back. So that was great. That was with April Moss and Link people. But that was the physical part of it; it was great to be in front of someone and just have a completely different experience. 

So Shankar, where can people find out more about you and your endeavours? Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn or just type Shankar Deep and find me. You can visit our website at www.lattice.site to get more information about us. And at the same time, I haven’t spoken much about Lattice in this podcast because I wanted it to be more of an understanding of how things are, just a good chat about it. But yeah, just write me an email at shankar@lattice.site if you want to know more, and I’ll be happy to chat. 

Okay, excellent. Thank you very much. Thank you, Shankar. Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of the Bricks and Bytes podcast. If you are enjoying the show, please feel free to rate, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. We really appreciate it, and we’ll catch you in the next episode.